windows 10 flickering after recovering from acronis true image 2016

I'm just guessing, but perhaps you knocked somethign loose when you upgraded to the SSD?  Maybe reseat cables and or any graphics cards in the PC. Reseat video cables on outside fo PC and your monitor as well.  If the flickering still continues, check your videocard manufacturer for more recent drivers, install, reboot and see if the flickering continues or not.  I'd also check your SSD manufacturer to make sure you have the latest firmware and drivers for it too.

no, none of these is the reason, as i said, no problem when dealing with win8.1, only for win10.

acronis true image 2016 may have some issue with win10,  for now, i switch to aomei backupper and maricum reflect, both work flawlessly. Hopefully they can fix this bug soon.

Did you recover the MBR and track 0 when you restored the image to the New drive?  If yes that is the problem.  When recovery to new disk you do not recover the MBR and track 0.  See section 5.1.1.4 of the documentation.

Enchantech,

No, it does not work either. I remember I did that before by unchecking "mbr and track 0",today I repeated the same procedure by both checking and unchecking that option, the result is the same, the problem still exists. As i said before, no problem with win 81, problem occurred on win 10 if the recover target is not the original partition.

you can replicate my experiment as follow:

1. Install win 10 on C

2. Backup C with acronis 2016

3. Recover the image to any other partition on the the same ssd (of course we need to set the new target  partition as "primary and active")

4.  recover the image to any other partition on a 2nd ssd and uss the new ssd as the boot drive

Both 3 and 4 will have the same result: recover is successful, but you will find problems once you enter desktop, either flickering screen or some pop up error message preventing further use. Again, no problem with win 81, no problem with aomei backupper and macrium reflect. Apparently, the current release has some bugs that need to be fixed.

I understand your issue.  I have experienced this myself.  What I found worked was to perform the recovery to the new disk not including the MBR and track 0 and select Shutdown Computer on completion.  Once computer is shutdown disconnect and remove the original source drive and then install in that disks place the newly restored disk.  In other words if the source disk was originally attached to port 0 then once the recovery was performed and before booting the machine to the new disk connect the new disk to port 0.  The original disk needs to be disconnected/removed prior to first boot as well.

From what I understand Win 10 keeps track of installed device locations and swapping them around willy nilly to differing connections can cause this flickering result.

Enchantech

You know what, the experience you shared here is quite similar to what I experienced about 2 months ago, but it actually happened on windows 8.1. At the time, I cannot even boot to windows, the screen showed something like “missing operating system” or “loading error” (cannot remember exactly). I solved it by doing something similar (swapping and disconnecting) as what you did.

This time, the story is different, but the cause may be the same as what you have explained, but it is inconvenient for me to do swapping and disconnecting this time, so I cannot verify the solution. But I need to point out, with either aomei backuper or marium reflect,  there is no such issue at all.

Hello jackson,

I would suggest to raise a support ticket for this issue.

Thank you,

I encountered the same problem is there any improvement or solution so far ?

I have the same problem with Win 10, but not Win 8. So I guess we can't really have a dual boot system involving 2 Win 10 HD's without lots of hassle. I'm using 2015. This sure isn't any incentive to go to 2016. But it is incentive to go to Macrium, which I am using on my other computer. After 2 months ago when this thread started, there's still no solution, it looks pretty bleak. Sad state of affairs

Gerry,

I think your issue is not the norm. It has been reported by some though.  The work-a-round was mentined earlier by Enchantec (dont' restore the MBR and track 0 partition during recovery - meaning you'd have to take a full system image and restore it instead of a clone - even with the cloning process, Acronis recommends taking a full disk image first - just in case).  So the fix is their, but it is a work-a-round since this issue is hard to produce and not a normal scenario with cloning and/or restoring images in most instances. 

If Acronis isn't working for you and you prefer another product, I'd say use what works best for you.  Remember the "grass is always greener" though.  Macrium Free doesn't give you a lot of the features that the paid version of that product does so you'd be spending a minimum of $80 for a single license if you need them.  The free version does not do incrementals, has no encryption, cannot do file/folder backup or recovery (only full disk/paritions), has no support and does not allow for dissimilar hardware restore.  The paid version adds these features but is not without issues either - check their forums. Also, they do not support previous versions - they lock the forum after a year so you won't even get user support like you do with Acronis.  If you like the product though and it works for you, go for it.  Having a working product that meets your needs is the most important aspect.  Personally, I would never put all my eggs in one basket when it comes to my important data.  If you want extra piece of mind - buying an external hard drive dock/duplicator and an extra disk for "clones" would be a good idea as well.  Even though Acronis Cloud is not without some issues as well, I like having the unlimited storage space and offsite disaster recovery and licensing for upgrades is relatively cheap - those are just my personal uses/needs though, but something to mention that Macrium doesn't offer either.  If you don't use the cloud services though, probably doesn't matter, but wanted to point that out for others too.

I think your issue is that of how Win 10 indexes the attached storage devices. I had this problem as well at one point and soved it by getting a multibay drive enclosure (icy dock) and using that to boot separate drives from.  The procedure is to only have 1 OS drive installed at any one time.  When yo want to boot to another OS shutdown, remove OS drive and swap in the new, reboot into boot selection menu, choose the new device to boot from.  Cumbersome but works.

Hello All,

So far we have not been able to reproduce the issue on our side. There seem to be other factors involved apart from mentioned in this thread, like specific hardware setup/partitions layout/Windows settings. As suggested by Ekaterina, if anyone still experiences flickering screen isssue after cloning/recovery and workaround that Enchantech offered does not help, contacting technical support at http://www.acronis.com/support would help to make a progress in the problem investigation and resolution.

Regards,

Slava

Bobbo I’ve been trying to post more comments in this and the 2015 forum for almost 2 weeks. There’s a forum glitch that others have also reported to Acronis that has finally been fixed.

Thanks for your thoughtful response comparing Acrons and Macrium. And thanks for your response in the Win 2015 Forum. Since these issues are related I need to continue the post here until the forums can be fixed.

Actually I do have a Samsung evo 850 250gb ssd as my main boot HD and I love it. The problem is I have too many HD's in my system and can't add another internal. For what I'm doing I don't want to use an external HD, I use them for backups only. It makes more sense in my situation to use the 2T HD as my alternate boot HD, as long as I can also use a data partition.

I restored a WIN 8 image to my 2T HD and it boots fine. Then I put in an additional partition for data, so now I have 3 partitions. Sys reserved, 100 gigs for boot and the rest for data. This time I restored the sys reserved partition first and then the C partition for WIN 8 and when I try to boot it instead goes to my WIN 10 HD and boots WIN 10.

My Win 8 partition is 100 gigs in size and it’s only using 40 gigs of space.   Can this work? Is there a different way of doing this that works? The changes in WIN 10 are causing lots of problems with dual booting. It seems like there needs to be an in depth tutorial to address these problems. It may require Easy BCD to be installed to fix these boot problems. Macrium has problems with Win 10 booting right too, but no flicker. Let me know your thoughts.

Thanks for your excellent advice

Gerry,

Not trying to barge in on you and Bobbo here, just wish to comment.  Your need as I see it is to dual boot your machine as desired between 2 different disk installations.  This is doable and can be achieved in a number of ways.  It is possible to use Windows boot manager to do this but seeing as you already have both installations done you would need to use an admin command prompt to do so. 

You mention EasyBCD and it is by far the simplest method for achieving what you desire.  Using EasyBCD would allow for an easy way to manage booting between your 2 drives and is a very valid solution to your issue.

From my own experience I would comment that dual booting although achievable can be troublesome even with an easy to use boot manager like EasyBCD.  Windows 10 has muddied the waters to a degree with the implentation of fastboot and use of Hiberfil.sys to achieve fastboot.  UEFI has a part in this as well.  I would recommend that which ever way you go that you disable fastboot in Windows 10 to help in avoiding issues there.

I would also recommend that when you desire to change from one OS to another that you do so by a complete shutdown and cold start of the PC.  Relying on a simple reboot can introduce problems with attached hardware so it is best to avoid that issue by using a cold start to the second, third, or whatever number of OS install on the machine.

Just my 2 cents worth.

****1st EDIT*** sorry, typed from phone initially, and after re-reading, sounded like gibberish****

Gerry - always happy to try and help.  Completley understand your situation and setup too. 

There have been a lot of people reporting issues with Win 10 and multiboot systems - don't think this is unique to Acronis specifically though as many forums are showing similar issues with mulitboot and just Windows 10 in general.  It seems to be something new with how Windows 10 is managing the bootloader.

On my new PC build, I can't boot from any OS just be selecting the hard drive diectly in the bios boot menu.  The only option that boots into Windows as a new one in the bios that I have not previously seen on other systems... it is specifically listed as "Windows Boot Manager".  In every other system I've used, up until this point, I could just select the disk and if it had a bootable OS, it just booted up.

Just to verify, your Windows 8 and Windows 10 installs are both UEFI/GPT?  I don't think your dual boot will work if one is Legacy\MBR and one is UEFI\GPT.

If you have good backups, you can try to manually update the bootloader.  This one is a bit more in depth than the usual fix mbr commands.  It basically has you copy the boot information directly from the installed OS and then run those commands.  May be worth checking out:

http://blog.d0zingcat.xyz/2015/09/28/Windows/How%20to%20repair%20the%20…

****2nd EDIT****

Enchantech brings up a lot of good points about EASYBCD and multiboot systems in general too - I didn't even see his post until just now, must have been typing at the same time.  Enchantech, always happy to have additional help - appreciate all of your thoughts on this and anyone else who can chime in too.

Nice to be talking to you again, Bobbo, after the weird lapse with the forum glitch. I agree it’s not just Aconris, with Macrium you have to jump through hoops to get that working also. It’s not easy.

Man I yearn for the days of Win 7 + 8, when I could just restore an image on an alternate HD and choose to boot from it in my bios bootup routine. Since many are having this problem, I think I’m just going to forget about using my 2T HD as a boot HD with a big data partition.

 I’ll just use this 200 gig HD as my dual boot and put in right next to my SSD boot hd and when I want to boot to another HD. I’ll turn off the computer and swap the data cables of the SSD and 200 gig hd, and boot up. The good thing about this is both HD’s will still show up in Windows and I can use Acronis to restore the hd not in use to whatever image I want and later when I shut down I can swap the cables and boot.

You mentioned Legacy\MBR and one UEFI\GPT. How do I find out if I’m using that? If I recall I only have GPT on 2 huge HD’s. On my main DAW computer I got it in June with Win 8 and every single image I’ve made has been with the SSD HD, so won’t that Legacy\MBR and one UEFI\GPT stuff be saved in the image, so wen I restore it to the 200 gig HD it’ll go to the 200 gig HD?

Thanks Enchantech for all your comments. They are excellent. I sure appreciate you chiming in. I have Fastboot turned off in my bios, because with an SSD drive, you can miss some boot menu options, since it boots too fast to use them. I don’t know what UEFI is. What is it?

Thanks for the tip on the cold start of the PC instead or hitting restart. That sounds useful for many situations.

So when I restore an image to a different HD I’ll make sure to not recover the MBR and track 0. Do you think after I swap the data cables for my SSD hd and my 200 gig HD that I’ll have to first boot up with only one boot hd? OR is that not always necessary to do?

Thanks for you help,

Hi Gerry,

You can check if your machine is using UEFI by clicking on the start button, select Run, type MSINFO32 and look at the output for the line BIOS Mode.

As for my comment on fastboot, I should have said fast startup.  You are right about not needing fastboot enabled if you are booting an SSD, they are plenty fast enough without it.  Fast Startup is a Win 8 - 10 feature and is enalbed by default.  This feature is designed to enhance the user experience and works well on most new machines with the latest hardware.  If however you have older hardware Fast Startup can be a problem especially USB attached devices such as keyboard, mice, even hard disks because the initialization of these devices does not occur correctly in all cases and causes errors.  You can check this by looking at Event Viewer in Windows.  If you see Kernel-PNP warnings, Critical Kernel power, and Event Log stating that previous shutdown was unexpected you probably have this hardware initialization issue.

If you find this to be the case on your system you can disable fast startup to fix the problem.  You can disable fast startup by right clicking the start button and selecting Power Options, select Change what the power buttons do from the left column, click on Change settings that are currently unavailable which appears next to the Shield icon which will allow you to chage the items in the list below.  Uncheck the Fast Startup box and Save changes at the bottom of the screen.  On my systems I do this because I run older USB key switch keyboards that I refuse to be without but they do not initialize properly on startup with fast startup enabled.  This has to do with ACPI calls which is beyond the subject here.

In answer to your question about having both drives attached at startup, I have found that to be troublesome with Win 10 as well.  Best to only have one OS drive attached on first boot.  Once that boot is done you can then shutdown again, attach the other drive if desired and restart.

Hope this helps.

Gerry, it's probably not necessary, but may be less troublesome in the long run to do one at a time.  If the case is already open, just leave it that way until you're certain everything is good to go and then button it up.  I'd start with the one drive just to make sure it boots and limit issues that "could' arise (but may not), then add the other and double check booting is still working correctly and that the right one is booting up (may need to update the bios boot order after adding the second drive so that the primary is the new one if the old one is still at the top of the list).

Enchantech and Mustang have some internal icy dock drive bays that make swapping a drive super easy.  Not sure of the exact model, but I'm sure they can provide that if intereseted.  That way you don've to keep dealing with the blugs and can just slip the drives in and out more easily.  Not very expensive either and may be a big time saver if you're going to be doing this alot.  If you have a spare 5.25" bay on the front of your PC, I believe they make them for those as well. 

As for verifying legacy/mbr boot vs gpt/uefi  - open "system information" on your computer and it should tell you if using legacy or UEFI there.  It can also tell you if using secureboot (although not sure if Win 7 will or not).  This one will show you a few different ways, in case it doesn't show there for some reason:

http://www.eightforums.com/tutorials/29504-bios-mode-see-if-windows-boo…

If your system came with Windows 8/8.1 - most likely it is already UEFI/GPT.  Older systems that originally had XP, Vista and/or Win7 are more likely to have come with a legacy MBR build, but with bios updates, may now be capable of UEFI/GPT boot support.  Drives 2TB and smaller may come from the manufactuers as MBR but can be converted to either format and Drives larger than 2TB usually come as GPT, but can be converted to MBR as well.  Just important to know what you have currently when restoring, as, if/when using your bootable recovery media from Acronis, you want to boot into it the same way the drive is formatted so that it uses the same formatting scheme when doing a full disk restore.  For instance if your main Drive is UEFI/GPT install of Windows, but you boot into Acronis in Legacy/MBR mode, it wilil try to restore the full disk image as an MBR/Legacy disk  and vice versa if you do the opposite.  Windows installation disks/usb drives will do the same thing.

Bobbo and Enchantech, thanks for all the great advice and guidance.  It turns out I've been using Legacy\MBR on all my computers, so I guess that means I don't have a conflict there. But do I need to convert to UEFI\GPT? What are the pros and cons?

I've disabled Fast Startup just in case that's ever an issue. I wonder if it even helps an SSD drive since they're so fast anyway. What do you think?

I see now because of changes in Win 10, I'm going to have to jump through some hoops, regardless of how I approach this. So I think it sounds like the keeping the boot drive always on port 0 and disconnecting the other boot hd during the initial bootup is the better approach for me.

The EasyBCD or similar approach is maybe more of a hassle than this port 0 approach. What I want is a reliable predictable method. So I'll give this one a try.

Thanks to all,

Hi Gerry,

You don't have to switch to GPT/UEFI.  It is certainly a newer technologyh though and I imagine that at some point, MBR will eventually be phased out altogether, but probably not for some time.  Newer tables and PC's usually come with UEFI turned on by default and legacy mode disabled.  On some tablests/pc's MBR isn't even possible (I have experienced this on an ASUS T200 tablet and an Acer Aspire Switch 10). 

By default, Windows 8/8.1/ and 10 will prefer to install as UEFI/GPT, but ultimately, it depends on how your motherboard was setup to boot first - legacy or UEFI. I also found that if your Win 10 installer boots to Legacy mode, it installs in legacy mode and the same goes for UEFI, despite whether or not your motherboard supports both methods - if it does both, it goes by how the installer was booted.  

The advantage for using UEFI is direct support for disks greater than 2TB - especially boot disks.  It also has no real parition limit, whereas MBR has a maximum of 4.  Some will say that GPT is faster, but in real world performance, you won't notice a difference, especially if using a fast SSD. Long story shot, no, you don't have to switch if things are working well and you're not needing to use more than 4 partitions.  However, if you ever find yourself needing/wanting to rebuild your OS, then yeah, switch to UEFI to take advantage of the new technology.   

In general, multiboot is just getting more complicated with Win 10.  A lot of people are giving up on having multiboot on a single drive and opting to use different drives for different OS - just to keep from going crazy since it's so hit-or-miss when Win10 is installed and the way new motherboards are handling the bootloader. I upgraded to a new motherboard (6th gen intel chipset) and for the first time, have a new entry in the bios specifically for Windows boot manager.  I have to use this one to be able to boot into Windows - period.  A lot different than what I've been used to in the past. 

THanks, Bobbo. Ok I swapped the cables and my SSD HD is disconnected and I booted fine on my 200 gig HD to Win 8. I started Acronis 2015 and restored a Win 10 image to the 200 gig HD. But I saw no option for choosing not to restore the MBR or track 0. Is that option only available with the boot CD? I'll let you know if this works.

Gerry, in most cases, I restore the MBR track 0 anyway and it's been fine.  However, for those times I have opted not too, when you I select the full disk recovery, there is an option under the full disk that has all of the available paritions with a check box for each one as well. Just unslect the MBR track 0 box and it will complete the restore without it and Acronis will make a new one as part of the process. 

The dual boot Win 10 went well today. I'm getting it down. I think you're right the MBR thing may not be necessary in my situation. Thnaks for all the help,

Continuing to test and swap cables. I've noticed that all this time my SSD boot drive has been connected to Port 3 not Port 0, like Enchantech suggested. And my alternate boot HD is connected to Port 1. Port 0 is one of my big data HDs. IS there any reason to change this around so that I am using Port 0 as the primary boot port?

Currently my SSD drive is on Port 3, which is my boot port and my 200 gig is connected to the alt boot port and they’ve been fine both connected at the same time.  Today I  was surprised that it booted to my 200 gig after I hit F11 (bios boot menu).

I chose to boot to my 200 gig and it worked! In my bios my SSD is set to be the first boot device and the 200 gig is the 2nd, so when I restarted it as expected booted to the SSD HD.

So this is good news for sure and I wonder if it has anything to do with my Port settings, since I’m not using Port 0 as the boot port. Any thoughts on this?

It shouldn't really matter which SATA port. However, your bios may have limitations on certain ports.  For example, my previous board had 6 ports.  1-3 were SATA 3 and 4-6 were SATA 2.  It also had a M.2 Sata connector, but if used, it would disable ports 4-6 and the m.2 slot for that board was SATA 2 only as well.

In most cases (although will vary from bios to bios and motherboard to motherboard), ports 0 and 1 are the "main" sata ports and ideal for your OS disk simply for the fact that SATA ports further down the chain may have the types of restrictions just mentioned. 

I agree with Bobbo, there are some SSD disks that must be attached to either port 0 or 1 but these are not the norm and obviously do not apply to you.

Your ability to boot using F11 to your secondary OS disk and then boot back into your primary OS disk on next restart can be attributed to the fact that you are running in Legacy bios mode.  If you were using a UEFI boot this would not be the case.  So things are all good with your arrangement as it stands right now. 

As they say, if it ain't broke don't fix it!

Thanks Enchanteck for the good explanation and good useful info.

After I put SSD back in  and had it boot fine, I connected 200 gig boot to the alt boot port and SSD booted fine. Inside Win 10 I restored a win 8 image that was made with the SSD drive to the 200 gig drive.

I turned off the computer and then did a cold start, went to the bios to make sure the HD settings were correct. Hit F11 to choose my 200 gig Win 8 drive and it booted fine,without me having to swap sata cables and both the SSD drive and the 200 gig drive were connected.

I’m not sure if I can do the exact same procedure with restoring Win 10 to the 200 gig drive. I may get the flickering like I did in the past. Although in this new method I’m doing a shutdown and cold start and also I’m going to the bios to refresh it’s settings. Possibly those 2 things will enable me to boot Win 10 with no flicker, like I’ve been able to do with Win 8, Any opinions?

Sounds like you're doing everythign right.  I guess now, if you're up for it, give it a shot and see how it goes - fingers crossed!

I think you should be able to get it working that way. Just to be on the safe side the first time you boot Win 10 disconnect the Win 8 drive first.  Then after you boot successfully you can reconnect the Win 8 drive.

Today I used F11 to dual boot to my Win 8 HD, I first went to my bios and checked the boot settings.  Every thing seemed fine until I started looking at my data on my data HD's. I was missing files from 4/13-4/21 on 2 data HD's only in folders that I had been recently doing work on. It was like System Restore tried to restore these data HD's to the 4/13 state. Fortunately my backup HD from last night had almost everything that was missing. Still this was very unnerving.

 In my decades of computing I've never seen anything this strange. I checked m recycle bin and it was empty. I can understand OS HD's going haywire, but not data HD's, especially this targeted - only vey recent files between 4/13 and 4/21. Maybe the last time I booted to Win 8 was 4/13

I never use System Restore, since I don’t trust it and found that I had no Restore points anyway. After assessing the damage, I decided to reboot to Win 10 and see if the data would magically appear. It booted to a blank screen, then rebooted and it tried to fix some problems and said it couldn’t I rebooted again and it tried to fix the problems and said it would take an hour. I felt things were maybe going haywire and it might lose more data, so I rebooted to Acronis boot CD and restored my last Win 10 image.

It booted fine, some data on my data HD’s was restored, but I was still missing data. I decided to run scandisk to check errors on my data HDs, most of them said I didn't need to check, but I did anyway and it found errors on 3 of my data HDs, one required a reboot to fix. After that was all done, I retrieved 99% of the lost files and found some very minor files on my backup HD. Net result is nothing was lost, but I’ve learned a lesson.

From now on, I’ll only have whatever boot drive I want to use connected to my main sata boot port and not confuse matters by trying to use F11 boot menu and boot to a drive that’s connected to my alternate sata boot port. If I restore an image I’ll make sure during 1st boot that only 1 boot HD is connected. Later I’ll connect my 2nd boot HD only on my alternate sata port, but won’t ever try to boot to it using that alternate port.

Anytime I’m trying any dual boot thing, I’ll physically unplug my backup USB HD, since that was one of the HD’s that had errors on it, although I don’t’ think any data was lost on it.

My conclusion is Win 10 is indeed weird when it comes to dual booting and it’s better to be very cautious about doing it. Fortunately for now there’s no pressing need for it. I also need to make sure all data is backed up, before trying to dual boot, just to be safe. I thought I’d share all this as a cautionary tale for others wanting to dual boot. Any theories on what caused this are certainly welcome

True Value 2016 was installed on Windows 10 Pro 64 bit version on ASUS X53SC Model.  I tried cloning the 500BG HD to external USB 3.0 500GB HDD Seagatse.  It recognised the uSB disk ans advised to restart to start the clone disk in dos.  It started and collapsed.

I tried Windows 10 Back Up Image programe of Microsoft and it worked well.

True value 2016 works well in imaging the disk to external same USB 3.0 disk and closes the system after completion of image transfer program.

Why we want cloning is?

We want it for any emergencies of disk crash.  We can quickly remove the crashed HDD and replace it with the clone.

Else, the back-up Image works fine with bootable media for recovery to a new HDD.

I tried testing the procedure and I seem to follow to the letter.

WHAT WENT WRONG AND WHAT IS WRONG WITH TRUE VALIE 2016

Hello Kalyanasundharam,

Thank you for your posting. Here some links to the threads that may be helpful:

https://forum.acronis.com/forum/113224
https://forum.acronis.com/forum/115230
https://forum.acronis.com/forum/113476
https://forum.acronis.com/forum/113480

And the general instructions on how to perform and troubleshoot clonig.

I would also recommend you to raise a support ticket since you have an active support program.

Thank you,

Kalyanasundharam I would recommend not starting a clone from within Windows.  Doing so will just cause Acronis to reboot the system and try to load into a Linux environment on your internal hard drive.  If this fails, you could actually end up with a corrupted windows bootloader.

Instead, when cloninig, please use the offline bootable recovery media and boot directly into it.  If this is not booting, you may have to some more investigation.  it could be that you need to turn off secure boot in the bios.  It could be that you need to boot the media in UEFI mode, instead of legacy mode or vice-versa.  the offline bootable media can boot on 32 and 64 bit machines and UEF and legacy machines, but that doesn't mean it will boot unless the bios configuration is properly setup on your end first.  I would always use your onetime boot menu/ boot overriede menu to make sure you are booting the bootable media in UEFI or Legacy mode (use the one that matches how  your OS is installed)

Check how Windows is installed

Example boot override menu with UEFI and Legacy options (notice secure boot is showing off too)