[Solved] ATI 2018 rescue media builder USB stick does *NOT* boot on Surface Pro 4

Heiner, welcome to these User Forums.

Sorry to hear of the woes with your MS Surface Pro 4 and difficulties in trying to recover this.

More questions than answers at this point.

Do you still have the ATI Rescue Media for 2016 / MVP tool that you used before>

How did you create the new ATI 2018 Rescue Media stick - which options did you take?

What do you mean when you say it won't boot?  How far does it get?  What do you see?  What size USB stick are you using?

Thank you, Steve !-

Well, using the one that had already worked for me earlier was the first thing I tried ("never change a winning team"). No cigar ...

I then created a new rescue media USB-stick from within ATI 2018, took the first option, the basic method or simple method, and then the USB drive as the target. It then trundles a while and writes the USB - stick.

USB stick, well, the last one (I tried 3 different ones ...) is 16GB FAT32. The behaviour is always the same: I see it accessing the USB-stick (indicator light on those that have one), before it then goes on to finallly boot from the hard drive to my basic windows10 system ...

I have tried with secure boot on and off, I have tried the method booting directly into the USB stick (using a combination of volume - and power switch) and I have tried to boot into UEFI first, verifying the boot sequence and then restarting the Pro4 with USB being the first in the boot sequence ... Beats me !

Heiner, please see forum topic: Surface Pro 4 Image successful which may offer you some suggestions.

Next, if you have another computer, can you test your USB Rescue Media (2016 / 2018) will boot successfully on that computer, to prove that the media itself is good.

Note: there have been issues with USB media when re-using the same where a full format was needed to correctly prepare the media for reuse (not a quick format!).

Thank you, Steve, that is a very useful link indeed !

I'll digest this a little bit and report back ...

Okay, still no luck ...

ATI 2018 produces a stick that is NON-BOOTABLE - at least not on my system and in my configuration !

With 2 different USB sticks, one proper one and one MicroSD-SD-USB adapter (yes, that's what worked for me the last time, believe it or not ....) I made a point of formatting them properly, not just quickformat, and put the ATI 2018 rescue builder on both of them.

With both of them I tried to boot in 2 ways: 

1. Boot into the UEFI bios, turn secure mode off, double-check that USB is first in the boot sequence and then restart the system

2.power the system off and go directly into boot from USB mode by pressing and holding down Volume - and power keys

In all cases I can see that the USB stick is being accessed and then we go on to boot from C:

Before I go and try the current MVP package: would that make sense at all, or is this depending on ATI 2018 as well ? In which case it's probably futile ...

Just beginning to wonder, that all these success stories (see link above), including my own one, are related to ATI2016 & MVP package. So far, I haven'T heard of  anyone doing this with ATI 2018 ... 

You should run a test to see if the problem has anything to do with TI 2018. Make a recovery USB drive from Windows. This will not include TI 2018. See if you are able to boot it. You will end up at a command prompt window if it is successful.

Go to Control Panel/Recovery and follow in the instructions to make the Windows Recovery drive.

I already did this, Mustang.-

See my opening statement:"Now, my system crashed, stuck on the opening screen, not going forward or backward, and I had to do a system revocery from MS via USB. This worked, booting from USB."

So, I have successfully reloaded my initial WIndows10 installation via USB ...  This rules out a problem with the USB per se, or my inability to boot from USB on a surface pro 4 ...

Kind regards

Heiner

Heiner, were you able to try your USB Rescue Media on another computer?

If you build the MVP ATI WinPE media, then this doesn't use the Acronis Media Builder tool but does require that you have the Windows ADK installed 

I have used my MVP WinPE USB stick multiple times and have never had a problem with booting from this.

Sorry, no, Steve I am travelling in Asia at the moment, so I only have this computer with me at the moment ...

Yes, I have used the MVP stick myself, worked like a charm. So, no problem going down that route again - if it makes sense, which you just confirmed, However, my MVP stick did not boot on this machine, as I said, first thing I did ...

The other thing is, I am wasting precious time here, since I have only a bare bone Windows10 at the moment, still hoping to get my image back ( which is the whole idea of making backups, isn'T it ? ...)

Even if I WERE to decide to re-install all those applications again, I don't have all the original CDs here with me, of course. Who does, while he / she is on the road ?

I REALLY have to get this image back ! Maybe I should fly to Singapore and visit Acronis headquarters ? :-D

(just kidding, of course)

Kind regards

Heiner

Heiner, sorry that I cannot help further but I don't have a Surface Pro of any variety to play with..

Have you opened a Support Case with Acronis for this problem?

No,of course not, Steve ... thank you for your help so far !-

I think I will give it one last shot tomorrow creating a USB-Stick with the MVP package. If that fails as well, then I guess I will have to throw in the towel and open a case with Acronis ...

Kind regards

Heiner

This might help, copied from the Microsoft Support site :)

Configure your Surface to start from a USB device

Once your USB drive is set up as a bootable drive with an appropriate operating system on it, you’ll need to set up your Surface to boot from this drive. This requires you to make changes in the UEFI. Here’s how to configure the boot order on Surface so the USB drive is the first option.

For info on using the UEFI on your Surface, see How do I use the BIOS/UEFI?

To make changes in the UEFI:

1. Shut down your Surface.
2. Once Surface has turned off, press and hold the volume-up button.
3. With the volume-up button held down, press and release the power button.
4. Continue holding the volume-up button until the Surface or Windows logo no longer appears on the screen.

   You should now see the Surface UEFI. Do one of the following:

   • Surface Pro 4, Surface Book and Surface Studio: Go to Step 13 below.
   • Surface Pro 3 and Surface 3: Go to Step 5 below.
   • Surface Pro 1 and Surface Pro 2: Skip to Step 9 below. 
5. Select Configure Alternate System Boot Order.
6. Do one of the following:
   • Surface Pro 3: Select USB > SSD
   • Surface 3: Select Network > USB > SSD.
7. Select Exit Setup.
8. Select Yes to save the configuration and restart Surface.
9. Select Secure Boot Control.
10. Select Disable. This will allow Surface to search for an alternate device to boot from aside from your SSD.
    Note

    This may affect the look of your Surface splash screen.
11. Select Exit Setup.
12. Select Yes to save the configuration and restart Surface.
13. Select Boot configuration.
14. Select USB Storage and drag it to the top of the list.
15. Select Exit and then select Restart Now.

Start Surface from a USB drive

Once you’ve followed the steps above to set up a USB drive as a bootable drive and configure the UEFI appropriately, you’re ready to start your Surface from your USB drive.

Surface Studio, Surface Book, Surface Pro 4, Surface 3, or Surface Pro 3 with a configured boot order in UEFI

1. Shut down your Surface.
2. Insert the bootable USB drive into the USB port on your Surface.
3. Press the power button to turn it on.
4. Follow the on-screen instructions to boot from your USB drive.

Surface Studio, Surface Book, Surface Pro 4, or Surface Pro 3 without a configured boot order in UEFI

1. Shut down your Surface.
2. Insert the bootable USB drive into the USB port on your Surface.
3. Press and hold the volume-down button on Surface.
4. While holding down the volume-down button, press and release the power button.
5. Follow the on-screen instructions to boot from your USB drive.

Thanks, Enchantec - those are exactly the 2 procedures that I followed, also to get my windows 10 back, otherwise we wouldn't be talking right now ...

Steve, if you are still listening, and have ATI2018 + windows 10: are you able to create a rescue media USB stick on your system and then boot into it ? Thanks ! 

Heiner, yes - I have created both the ATI 2018 'Simple' WinRE rescue media and also the MVP ATI 2018 WinPE rescue media and can boot both fine on my system.  Just tested the former to check out for a different forum topic as I default to the MVP tool normally.

Heiner,

I have created media using the MVP tool, TI Media Builder WinPE and WinRE and all work fine.  The biggest issue I see with problems that users encountering is that of using Thumb drives that have been previously written to and then not properly formatted for being used as a boot media.   A full format (not quick) using Windows format tool will usually get things working.  If not then a third party tool like RMPrepUSB or Windows Diskpart can definitely do the job.  You can of course just purchase a new blank flash drive as well.  

To verify, you are following steps 13, 14, and 15 in the how to guide?

... and 9 and 10 as well, Steve. I did a full format on 2 different USBs using Windows, then created Rescue Media Builder on it, that should be sufficient, no ?

I mean, not trying to be "funny" here, but what will an external utility do for me that the combo from Windows + ATI can't ?

To clarify: My problem is not that the system can't find the ATI - USB drive, it just ignores it !

... Actually, the behaviour looks identical to ATI 2016 and its Linux USB stick !

Heiner, wrote: "what will an external utility do for me that the combo from Windows + ATI can't ?"

A good question and one that shouldn't need to be asked but reality is sometimes different and we have seen instances in the forum where a full format in Windows has not resolved an issue with a non-booting USB stick, hence the recommendation from Enchantech  to try "a third party tool like RMPrepUSB or Windows Diskpart"

With regards to using Diskpart, the following commands should be used:

diskpart
list disk   (to identify USB drive, i.e. 1)
select disk 1
clean
create partition primary
active
format fs=fat32 quick
assign
exit

Okay, we might be one step closer to solving the puzzle, I hope:

After trying rmprepusb to format the usb stick and after trying the MVP toolset to create the USB stick - all resulting in the same behaviour i.e. my usb - stick being ignore, I decided to create a Windows - Recovery USB stick ... well, I TRIED. Came down with recovery media could not be built !

Looking at the attached screenshot of reagentc/info, it seems that, for whatever reasons, my whole winRE environment is not existent ! Or, what do you guys thing ? Is your output running reagentc/info different, i.e. is it giving a proper location for the image ?

There is nothing wrong with your reagentc /info output. Your WinRE environment is okay. I suspect the problem is with the USB drives you are using. You should reformat the USB drive as MBR/FAT32 before trying to create the Recovery drive. The drive needs to be 32 GB or less in size.  Make sure that Disk Management reports the USB drive as "Removable".

FAT32 they already are. 16 GB in size.

How do you reformat to MBR/FAT32 ?

Heiner, using the diskpart commands I gave earlier should be sufficient for the reformat.

I just tested building a Windows 10 Recovery USB stick using an Integral 16GB USB drive that I cleaned first using diskpart and this booted just fine into the Recovery environment for me.

I see the same reagentc /info output as shown in your screen image earlier.

Microsoft Windows [Version 10.0.17040.1000]
(c) 2017 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

C:\WINDOWS\system32>reagentc /info output
Windows Recovery Environment (Windows RE) and system reset configuration
Information:

    Windows RE status:         Enabled
    Windows RE location:       \\?\GLOBALROOT\device\harddisk0\partition2\Recovery\WindowsRE
    Boot Configuration Data (BCD) identifier: d2587c85-cb24-11e7-a29e-98a7b5580d6f
    Recovery image location:
    Recovery image index:      0
    Custom image location:
    Custom image index:        0

REAGENTC.EXE: Operation Successful.

(I am running the latest Windows Insiders build 17040 on this computer).

Thank you, Steve !-

I followed your example and did EXACTLY the same on an integral 16GB USB - stick ...

As the second screenshot shows, I, unfortunately, cannot replicate your success.

And this, I think, is also the reason I am not getting anywhere with my ATI Rescue Media ...

This is really frustrating !

Kind regards

Heiner

Heiner, do you have any other USB sticks that you can try or could you get hold of another one?

An alternative test would be to use the Windows 10 Media Creation Tool and try to create an install USB stick with the same one and see if that will boot correctly or not?

I can see the USB drive you show in Disk Management is fine. It is formatted correctly and is reported as a Removable disk. More than likely, the problem is with BIOS settings in the Surface Pro 4. You can prove that by using that USB drive with the MVPTool. Then try booting it on another computer. If it boots, you will know the BIOS setting in the Surface Pro 4 are the problem.

Modern computers have become very difficult to deal with. I can't give you details about what to look for in your BIOS. In general, you need to make sure USB Legacy support is enabled. CSM (Compatibility Support Module) must also be enabled and set to support both UEFI and Legacy modes. You should be able to leave Secure Boot enabled.

You also have a strange problem in your Windows system. You should be able to create a Windows Recovery USB drive because your WinRE environment is okay and the drive you used is okay. I don't have an answer for that problem.

Heiner,

Are you attempting boot as shown in this YouTube video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7i6o8LLqHE

Yes, Enchantec, I have followed this procedure and also the second more direct one, the one using Volume - ,which you also describe in your earlier post.

I used this procedure to get my bare bone Windows 10 back, the system I am on right now. Unfortunately, in his video he doesnt say a word about the other options that exist ...

My problem is not booting, my problem is finding something that boots !

Thank you, Mustang.-

Funny enough, the surface pro 4 offers neither a USB Legacy mode nor a CSM mode - simply not there ...

I am sure it's not the stick that's at fault. Oh, by the way, in the Windows 10 recovery disk creation dialogue, if I UNCHECK the write system files checkbox, the process terminates normally, another indication, I guess, that the stick per se is not the problem ... but I just bought another one anyhow, trust me,  there is more at stake here then just 5$ for a USB stick !!!

I will now try to use the MVPtool on that very stick and also try to get access to another Windows 10 machine ...

Heiner,

Most definitely try to boot the media on another machine.  If you can do that then that would indicate nothing wrong with the media, the problem would be with the PC. 

Something you might try, a bit of a long shot but..... Do a hard shutdown of the Surface Pro.  Open an Admin Command Prompt in Windows 10 and type shutdown /s.  This will end all processes, log you off, and shutdown the PC.  Then, with your USB media attached attempt to boot to it using the methods described on the Microsoft site with the Volume up and Power keys.  I think the key here in all of this is to make certain that your USB is first in the boot list.  What you describe indicates to me that it is not.  Cannot explain that but a hard shutdown might just fix it!

Another issue could be Fast Startup. Under Control Panel/Power Options click change what power buttons do. Then click change setting that are curretly unavailable. Then make sure the the "turn on fast startup" box is unchecked to disable it. If fast startup is enabled, the computer really in hybernation and not shut down.

Also see if there are any entries in the BIOS that enable fast startup. That could make the BIOS ignore USB device initialization.

Okay, guys, for the sake of everyone's edification, especially mine, let me tell you how things went on:

The time had finally come to get a second windows10 machine to see whether it's actually the stick that's the problem, or whether it's my USB port / settings ...

Cleared the stick once again (diskpart), used the MVP tools this time to populate it and went into the bios of that second machine. It's an older kind of UEFI , so it still had settings for legacy mode and csm, ok, change boot order and off you go ... trundled for a while and then I got this screen (see first attachment): while I was not too happy that the script had halted, it still nevertheless meant I HAD SUCCESSFULLY BOOTED FROM THIS STICK !

That got me thinking again, and also to revisit some of the earlier comments, especially this one from Enchantec / Microsoft:

1. Shut down your Surface.
2. Once Surface has turned off, press and hold the volume-up button.
3. With the volume-up button held down, press and release the power button.
4. Continue holding the volume-up button until the Surface or Windows logo no longer appears on the screen.

   You should now see the Surface UEFI. Do one of the following:

   • Surface Pro 4, Surface Book and Surface Studio: Go to Step 13 below.
   • Surface Pro 3 and Surface 3: Go to Step 5 below.
   • Surface Pro 1 and Surface Pro 2: Skip to Step 9 below. 
5. Select Configure Alternate System Boot Order.
6. Do one of the following:
   • Surface Pro 3: Select USB > SSD
   • Surface 3: Select Network > USB > SSD.
7. Select Exit Setup.
8. Select Yes to save the configuration and restart Surface.
9. Select Secure Boot Control.
10. Select Disable. This will allow Surface to search for an alternate device to boot from aside from your SSD.
    Note

    This may affect the look of your Surface splash screen.
11. Select Exit Setup.
12. Select Yes to save the configuration and restart Surface.
13. Select Boot configuration.
14. Select USB Storage and drag it to the top of the list.
15. Select Exit and then select Restart Now.

Now, after having read a million times on the web "turn secure boot off","turn secure boot off", "turn secure boot off", it finally HIT ME: I am having a surface pro *4*, so, under point #4 it is stated quite clearly that for the SP4 you go to #13 directly WITHOUT TURNING SECURE BOOT OFF !

So, get out the new USB Stick that I'd just bought "in town", fire up ATI 2018, build rescue media from ATI on that stick, reboot to bios,reset everything to default options, shutdown computer. Restart directly (power on and volume- combined) into the USB attached stick .... trundle, trundle, trundle: BINGO ! ATI 2018 !

So, there you have it - success ! Needless to say I'm relieved ! Let me also use this opportunity to thank everyone that was involved over the last couple of days to get this resolved, especially, Steve, Mustang, Enchantec. Your efforts and your concern are very much appreciated !!!

And, of course, I now stand corrected as far as the title of this thread is concerned ... Finally, I get a chance, at least for an hour or so, to enjoy this ... (second attachment) ... thanks everybody !

Kind regards from Phuket, Thailand

Heiner

Heiner, great to hear your good news that you have this working!  

One last request please, can you go back to your initial post for this topic and click on Edit on that post which will allow you to add [Solved] to the beginning of the Subject line, so that others can find your solution too.

Mustang wrote:

Another issue could be Fast Startup. Under Control Panel/Power Options click change what power buttons do. Then click change setting that are curretly unavailable. Then make sure the the "turn on fast startup" box is unchecked to disable it. If fast startup is enabled, the computer really in hybernation and not shut down.

Also see if there are any entries in the BIOS that enable fast startup. That could make the BIOS ignore USB device initialization.

Read this thread because I have an old Acer Aspire S3-391 that stopped booting from usb stick after I did a clean reinstall of Win 10. That was so painfully time consuming that I became serious about making an ATI backup. This post solved my issue of not being able to boot from my rescue usb stick.

Thank you, Mustang. Your posts have helped me out many times over the past few years.