"Clone settings" deleted all my backups.
I had a chain of incremental backups.
I wanted to start a new one with the same settings in another directory.
I cloned the settings of the original backup task.
I changed the path in the new backup task.
I created a backup with the new task, I then realized that it did an incremental one, chaining the new task to the old backups, but in the new location.
I noticed that the Last Version date of the original backup task jumped up to the one of the new task.
I entered the "Explorer and recover" dialog of the original backup task and saw that the backup created by the new backup task had been appended to the original one.
I deleted that last backup, which deleted the backup from both tasks.
I realized that the cloned setting backup task was useless, so I decided to delete it. I was wondering if deleting the new backup task would affect the original one, but since the new task stated that it had no backups in it, and the original one all the 10 backups, I thought that the message telling me that the task and it's backups which will get deleted would not affect my original backup, as the task realized that it contained no backups.
After deleting the new task, all my original backups were also deleted. Way to go, Acronis.
The following is definitely NOT true:
http://kb.acronis.com/content/24062
Ok, thanks for your answer.
A warning or an explanation of the consequences, ie that those two tasks are tightly coupled would be the least one could expect. A listing of what the user shouldn't expect to be able to do.
So, if one accidentally creates a new task via cloned settings, ie. because he thought that he wants a new, separate backup, with the same characteristics of one which already exists, where he knows that he most probably will miss a setting if building a new one from scratch, but knows that it's easy to remember that the only thing that needs to be changed is the path, if one accidentally creates a new task because of being tempted by the name (which is not something like "linked backup task"), how can one delete that new cloned task without affecting the original one? "Remove from list?", does that delete the task? Wouldn't it make more sense to allow to "delete this task" but optionally keep all the backups in order not to break other ones which use the same files? Something smells really fishy with that usability model.
Now, which applications does the "clone settings" have if all i can do is create new "views" to the same backup and potentially mess up the original tasks?
I really can't help it.
From the Help File:
'''Cloning backup settings When you already have a backup and you need to create a new backup of the same type (disk, file or e-mail backup), there is no need to configure the backup process from scratch. The program allows you to copy all settings from an existing backup. After that, you only have to slightly correct the copied settings for your new backup and click Back up now. To create a new backup based on an existing backup:
On the Backup and recovery tab, find the corresponding backup box, click the gear icon to open the Operations menu, point to More, and then click Clone settings. A new backup box named (1) [the initial backup name] will be created. It will contain the same settings as the "parental" backup.
On the cloned backup box, click the gear icon to open the Operations menu, and then click Edit settings. Change selection of items to back up. You may modify backup name, destination, and other settings if needed.
Click the Save button.
To create the first backup version, click Back up now on the backup box.'''
This really sounds like the feature is meant do do what I expected it to do, but due to some bug doesn't do.
Another question: If I create a "backup clone" via this option, if the first thing I do with the new backup is to create a Full backup (which I then later change in the settings to an incremental one), will the original still think that that new full backup in that other folder specified by the cloned task belongs to it or will it happily ignore it? 'Cause the latter would be better that any other strange behaviour.
I really can't help it.
From the Help File:
'''Cloning backup settings When you already have a backup and you need to create a new backup of the same type (disk, file or e-mail backup), there is no need to configure the backup process from scratch. The program allows you to copy all settings from an existing backup. After that, you only have to slightly correct the copied settings for your new backup and click Back up now. To create a new backup based on an existing backup:
Understand this is the intent. The reality is that editing an existing backup setting can create errors and confusion (both on the ATI and user side).
[...] You may modify backup name, destination, and other settings if needed.Click the Save button.
It is true that technically the product allows for that. But the results can be surprising and lead to errors and confusion. So expert users always recommend to create a new task, ideally in a new directory, so that you easily track when the changed kicked in, verify it is behaving as intended, keep whole chains together, etc.
Another question: If I create a "backup clone" via this option, if the first thing I do with the new backup is to create a Full backup (which I then later change in the settings to an incremental one), will the original still think that that new full backup in that other folder specified by the cloned task belongs to it or will it happily ignore it? 'Cause the latter would be better that any other strange behaviour.
If you clone in incremental backup, the task will be incremental. If you run the original and the clone, you will see ATI gets confused. If you edit the clone, you can see results are unpredictable.
Typically, ATI should create a new full it an incremental task starts in folder where this is no full present associated to the task. But since the backup tasks are fused, ATI might see some fulls in there and just create incrementals based on I cannot guess which file.
So, to avoid any risk, create a new task with a new name in a new directory. That why you will be able to visualize what is really happening.
Thank you.
One further question: I've got a backup job which only does incremental backups. I'd like to manually make full backups every now and then, instead of choosing the option to let acronis make one full backup after every 5 incremental ones.
Could I clone the settings, and name the new job "Like original but a full one", change its properties to make a full backup, and then make the incremental ones daily with the original job and the full ones every now and then with that new job, without getting any of these jobs confused but having both of them respect what the other job did?
And another one:
Where are the settings stored? Assuming that they are stored in some xml files, one for each job, could I duplicate one of those files manually, rename it, and carefully adjust the settings (and guids) so that I get two unlinked jobs which have almost all but one properties changed? Would that be ok?
Also, finding out what the consolidation doesn't work reliable was kind of disappointing, so there seems to be only a certain set of features which work really well, but some which shouldn't better be touched, since backups are kind of a sensitive aspect of data management. Is there a list somewhere which contains the reliable features, and those which should better not be used on critical backups?
Again, thanks for your help.
Thank you.
One further question: I've got a backup job which only does incremental backups. I'd like to manually make full backups every now and then, instead of choosing the option to let acronis make one full backup after every 5 incremental ones.
You can force this by manually moving the existing TIB files to another directory on the same disk (to avoid a long copy). This will force ATI to do a full backup next time.
Could I clone the settings, and name the new job "Like original but a full one", change its properties to make a full backup, and then make the incremental ones daily with the original job and the full ones every now and then with that new job, without getting any of these jobs confused but having both of them respect what the other job did?
Better to move the files and simply continue the same task.
And another one:
Where are the settings stored? Assuming that they are stored in some xml files, one for each job, could I duplicate one of those files manually, rename it, and carefully adjust the settings (and guids) so that I get two unlinked jobs which have almost all but one properties changed? Would that be ok?
I never tried this.
Also, finding out what the consolidation doesn't work reliable was kind of disappointing, so there seems to be only a certain set of features which work really well, but some which shouldn't better be touched, since backups are kind of a sensitive aspect of data management. Is there a list somewhere which contains the reliable features, and those which should better not be used on critical backups?
I don't think there is a list. The dos and don'ts change depending on the version and even the builds.
The settings I was recommending above are the most reliable, short of doing only full backups.
One further question: I've got a backup job which only does incremental backups. I'd like to manually make full backups every now and then, instead of choosing the option to let acronis make one full backup after every 5 incremental ones.
That is very easy to do. Simply create a new task pointing to a new empty storage folder (or sub-folder off the main backup folder) and set the backups to only full or x number of fulls. You could execute the full backup by opening Acronis and choosing the "Back up now" option; or you could have a desktop shortcut which you could click on without opening the backup program.
Once you create the task, you the "edit backups setting" option and choose the "create backup shortcut". That will place the shortcut on your desktop for easy access to doing a full backup any time you wish.
http://forum.acronis.com/forum/29618
The above link is an example of how to create backup tasks--- should you need assistance.
Below is one example on how to set a backup scheme to create full backups. This shows keeping 4 but change that to whatever number of fulls you wish to keep. Each backup would create 1 full--much like an escalator. Once you read the x number retained, the oldest is deleted as the newest one is created.
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Pat L:
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Oh man, that sounded like a really great solution.
I tried it. It worked, once.
So I renamed the folder with the incremental backps, created a new one with the same name as the old one, and restarted ATIH.
I made a backup, and indeed, it automatically created a new, full one. All ok.
Then I tried to explore the old, incremental ones, via the windows explorer, because they weren't inside the ATIH GUI., once opened, they got automatically inserted into the GUI, but when I tried to use "Explore and recover" on those incremental ones, the Dialog would not build up correcly, it somehow got stuck, so that I force closed ATIH, and then opened it again. Then I was able to use "Explore and recover" Dialog, and all appeared to be ok.
But then I renamed the new, full one again, as well as the old incremental one,
(
"2012-06-25 - Consolidation Test - 2012-06-26 - 2" <- files of new full backup, and
"2012-06-25 - Consolidation Test - 2012-06-26 - 1" <- files of old incremental backups (and an initial full one)
) and created the primary directory ("2012-06-25 - Consolidation Test") again, but this time the Task in Acronis wouldn't adapt.
Now I have two tasks in there which didn't "break", but adapt to those folder renamings while not updating the task settings:
One Task, named "SSD Root - 2012-06-25 - Consolidation Test - 2012-06-25", which is the one which used to be linked to the incremental ones, still shows their content, validates correctly, but always states that it is linked to files in the folder "2012-06-25 - Consolidation Test - 2012-06-26", which now doesn't exist, since it got renamed to "2012-06-25 - Consolidation Test - 2012-06-26 - 1". When I click on the Location link in the GUI, which it claims to be "2012-06-25 - Consolidation Test - 2012-06-26", the windows explorer opens the folder "2012-06-25 - Consolidation Test - 2012-06-26 - 1".
The same thing goes for the Task which it thinks has it's files in "2012-06-25 - Consolidation Test", but which are actually in "2012-06-25 - Consolidation Test - 2012-06-26 - 2". That task also validates correctly, but "2012-06-25 - Consolidation Test" is empty...
Here lies the problem of the method which you recommended: It's also not reliable. Now I'm not able to keep moving the backups out of the folder to force a full backup, since under certain unknown circumstances ATIH partially adapts to those directory changes.
What exactly do I need to do to in order get reliable results with your method, as I think that if it would work, it would be the best one for me.
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GroverH
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Also thanks for your input. As I stated initially, I don't want ATIH to make a full backup every so and so, neither do I want it to create only a handfull of backups. I want to choose by myself when I'm going to create a full backup.
IDEALLY I'd have a dropdown box on the "Backup now" button, where I could choose to make a full backup for this one time instead of letting it do the default incremental one.
Another thing, I believe that performance would get hurt a lot if it always get's capped to 4 or so versions, since every backup would need to create a full one of the one which gets deleted and the one which follows it, and in addition create the new incremental one. I want the incremental ones for small, quick backups, of which I could do multiple a day, and the full ones every couple of days to up to a week or so.
Storage space doesn't matter at all, I've reserved a 2TB disk only for backups of a disk which images to about 15GB per full backup. Due to this I'm also replacing incremental backups with differential ones, as they give me a bit more flexibility.
I'm on a relatively clean system now and working on this backup strategy, so I'm willing to test what works and what doesn't as much as I can, before I start focusing on other stuff. But up to now, this day has really showed me that the software is extremly unreliable. I have it for 5 days or so.
I considered ATIH for my backup strategy since I used it back in 2009 and got it for a relatively good price, but back in 2009 I stopped using it, since it was just as unreliable as it is now ( I posted this http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=225837 ). I thought it had improved, but I see that this is not really the case.
At this point I'm still not dumping it, as I only need a subset of it's features, but those really need to work very reliably:
Create a chain of differential backups, create a full backup in the chain every now and then (I choose when), and be able to recover the system or files of it in case it's needed.
I'm also doing backups with SyncBack Pro, which is absolutely awesome as it's super reliable, feature rich and inexpensive, but it lacks the ability of creating system/restoring backups, and the Windows Backup and Restore is not as flexible as I need it to be.
Ideally there would be a way to understand what makes Pat L's method work (and fail, so that I don't mess up my backups). Or the thing with the dropdown box on the "Backup now" button in order to have the ability to force a full one. But the folder separation thing is also pretty handy for sorting the backups.
EDIT (APPEND):
GroverH: Also, for your tip of creating a new, separate task which does full backups; the thing is that I want those full backups to be in the chain of the differential ones. Can I just dump the full one in the folder of the differential ones, and when I then make a new differential one it uses the newest full one to continue doing the backups or does it ignore the newly moved in full backup?
One additional option available is to supplement an Acronis backup task with the free helper program Chain2Gen(C2G) created by Acornis MVP OracleDBA. The schedule and backup creation is handled by TrueImage but the retention of backup and when a new full is created is under the manipulation of C2G.
Essentially, you set up a scheduled Acronis task and a C2G parameter file which controls the number of Incremental and number of complete chains (full + x inc) to be retained. 1 Chain= 1 full plus a fixed or variable number of inc.
After task created, create two desktop shortcuts.
a. The C2G shortcut (if clicked ) would cause the next backup to be a full backup even if next scheduled is to be a inc.
b. The Acronis shortcut (if clicked) would enable cause the next backup immediately if you did not want to wait until the next scheduled time.
c. If not clicked, the normal schedule and normal number of files would control when and how many.
Each chain is stored in its own folder. How many folders is determined by the number of chains retained.
Each new backup always goes to folder set0. When the next full backup is due, the set0 is renamed set1 and a new set0 is created and this shuffle movement continues with whatever number of chains retained. If you shortened the cycle time via the shortcuts, the resulting setx folder would have a variable number of files in its chain.
The method use by C2G to force a new full is its "!_FORCE_NEW_CHAIN.bat" batch file (optional desktop shortcut). When the batch file is executed (via shortcut or the program), a marker is placed inside the set0 folder and anytime C2G sees the the marker, it shuffle the set0 contents (set0 becomes empty) into the se1 folder and other setx folders moved up or out of the retention cycle.TrueImage sees the set0 folder empty and thus create a new full backup.
For more info, click on the top line of my signature index below. Index item #5 B illustrates a simple guide whereas item 5-A is the download line and discussion of the file. This was written OracleDBA some versions back but still applicable for the current versions.
In response to your question in post #8. While you have as many tasks as you wish, each task is separate from the other. Within a given task, the creation of a new full closes the old chain and the full is the beginnings of a new chain. An inc task or diff task begins with a full backup. The full is the base and without the full, no inc or full has any restore value.
1 chain = 1 full; or 1 full + x inc; or 1 full + x diff. 2 full backups never permitted within 1 chain. 2 full backups=2 chains, etc Multiple chains from the same task can be stored within the same storage folder. Each chain is validated as being a non-broken readable single chain. And as you know, if any inc becomes corrupt, any newer inc is useless within the same chain.
So I renamed the folder with the incremental backps, created a new one with the same name as the old one, and restarted ATIH.
Do it the other way:
- create a new directory,
- move the TIB files there, without changing their names or whatever,
- simply continue the same task. A new full will be created.
I made a backup, and indeed, it automatically created a new, full one. All ok.
Then I tried to explore the old, incremental ones, via the windows explorer, because they weren't inside the ATIH GUI., once opened, they got automatically inserted into the GUI, but when I tried to use "Explore and recover" on those incremental ones, the Dialog would not build up correcly, it somehow got stuck, so that I force closed ATIH, and then opened it again. Then I was able to use "Explore and recover" Dialog, and all appeared to be ok.
In the double gear menu, close to the search box, turn off the option to search for existing backup files on the computer. This should prevent the moved files to be picked up by ATI, but doesn't prevent to use them to restore later...
But then I renamed the new, full one again, as well as the old incremental one,
(
"2012-06-25 - Consolidation Test - 2012-06-26 - 2" <- files of new full backup, and
"2012-06-25 - Consolidation Test - 2012-06-26 - 1" <- files of old incremental backups (and an initial full one)
) and created the primary directory ("2012-06-25 - Consolidation Test") again, but this time the Task in Acronis wouldn't adapt.
Don't rename any file created by ATI.
Now I have two tasks in there which didn't "break", but adapt to those folder renamings while not updating the task settings:
One Task, named "SSD Root - 2012-06-25 - Consolidation Test - 2012-06-25", which is the one which used to be linked to the incremental ones, still shows their content, validates correctly, but always states that it is linked to files in the folder "2012-06-25 - Consolidation Test - 2012-06-26", which now doesn't exist, since it got renamed to "2012-06-25 - Consolidation Test - 2012-06-26 - 1". When I click on the Location link in the GUI, which it claims to be "2012-06-25 - Consolidation Test - 2012-06-26", the windows explorer opens the folder "2012-06-25 - Consolidation Test - 2012-06-26 - 1".The same thing goes for the Task which it thinks has it's files in "2012-06-25 - Consolidation Test", but which are actually in "2012-06-25 - Consolidation Test - 2012-06-26 - 2". That task also validates correctly, but "2012-06-25 - Consolidation Test" is empty...
Here lies the problem of the method which you recommended: It's also not reliable.
The correct method is very reliable with the adjustments mentionned above. In fact the behavior is the foundation for the Chain2Gen tool that Grover's pointing you at.
Jesus Christ, this software is beyond evil!
Ok, at first, thanks a lot, again, to both of you for your time and effort.
I've taken a look at the Chain2Gen tool, and decided not to use it unless there is absolutely no other way to create a sensible backup strategy.
Grover, all the tips you provide in your posts are really valuable, it's quite impressive what you have been posting.
Pat L, I'll try to check your method in the next couple of hours, but there is something I really need to get off my back.
I've attempted the following procedure: I've got a Python script which modifies the tasks xml file so that I can toggle between diffs and full backups easily. This works: I get one chain of differential backups, and when I run the script to change it to full mode, I can insert a full one in the chain, then run the script it again to change back to diff. But then I noticed the following, which I then tested with a new task:
I create a new differential task. First backup is full. Then I create two more backups, those are differentials. I delete the first differential backup via the Recovery dialog "Delete" button, then try to validate the last differential backup. This pops up a dialog telling me it can't find "Volume 2", forces me to abort the validation, and leaves me with a message that "The backup is corrupted". WTF? I thought differential backups were only dependent of the last full backup (in this case the first backup which got made)... That last full backup does verify correctly, so the last differential one should also work, right?
So, to sum this up, differential mode doesn't work?
Grover, I read in one of your posts that "Acronis® Backup & Recovery™ 11 Workstation" could deal with these trivial and essential tasks, as the tech support stated to you. I'm now really considering to turn the back towards this software, and not even spend more time looking for adecuate Acronis software. I mean, ATIH is really dangerous software. It might be able to do some cool things, like mount the images and easily recover them, but if you try to use more than 10% of the features Acronis advertises, you're most probably ending up in deep trouble. It's all yada yada yada in the feature set description, but almost nothing works reliably. Is it just me who feels like this?
EDIT (APPEND):
I noticed that it's apparently only the validation which fails and tells that the backup is corrupt. It looks like it's possible to recover the data, but any attempt to validate a differential backup which has a deleted differential precursor will fail. This is not acceptable, as it makes the validation useless. I've tried all this on a simple file based backup in order to speed up testing, but I doubt that I'm willing to accept this on a system backup.
I've attempted the following procedure: I've got a Python script which modifies the tasks xml file so that I can toggle between diffs and full backups easily. This works: I get one chain of differential backups, and when I run the script to change it to full mode, I can insert a full one in the chain, then run the script it again to change back to diff. But then I noticed the following, which I then tested with a new task:
I create a new differential task. First backup is full. Then I create two more backups, those are differentials. I delete the first differential backup via the Recovery dialog "Delete" button, then try to validate the last differential backup. This pops up a dialog telling me it can't find "Volume 2", forces me to abort the validation, and leaves me with a message that "The backup is corrupted". WTF? I thought differential backups were only dependent of the last full backup (in this case the first backup which got made)... That last full backup does verify correctly, so the last differential one should also work, right?
This is a known bug which makes differential a bit tricky to trust. When you delete an intermediary differential backup (which you should be able to do), then the validation of the remaining file fail. There is a high chance you can still recover, but of course a failed validation can be because of other valid reason, so you don't know where you really stand...
Is it known what would happen if instead of deleting an intermediate differential that this differential would still exist but be corrupted, would the validation of a newer differential backup be affected by this? If it's deleted, it complains about a missing volume, but if it exists, but is corrupt, would the validation still fail? It shouldn't, as it should not care about what resides inside that corrupted backup.
Since when is this bug known? I can't find it on the known issues list. Also, I really don't feel like getting in touch with the customer support, as I have already had some bad experiences with them.
I'm ok with paying more for a reliable, solid solution. Do you have experience with Paragon Hard Disk Manager 12 Professional?
EDIT (APPEND):
I corrupted one backup to test (saved some text in it), and it still won't validate. At least this time the error message differs, telling me that I can press "retry" to check the next file in line. That doesn't work. I then made a new full backup, and this time the prior differential, and EVEN THE CORRUPTED ONE, validated successfully as good backups. Oh my god. This software is buggy down to the last bit. Will download Paragon now.
Daniel,
The validation process is recalculating chksums that have been embedded in the file during creation and comparing with the original ones. It is not obvious, but likely, that your adding extraneous data to the file was done at a spot in the file structure that would corrupt these chcksums.
The fact that ATI would fail to validate a chain of differentials after you have deleted on intermediary differential is well known, and I think it is listed in the known issues of ATI 2012.
If you have a corrupt differential that you validate, it should fail. If the corrupted differential is between the full and the one you validate, the one you validate shouldnt' be affected.
Wrt to other imaging software, your mileage will vary, just like with any imaging software. Make sure you uninstall ATI and use the clean up utility (follow all instructions carefully) before you install another imaging product. Also test the recovery medium!
RE: If you delete one or more diff files from the backup, the validate will fail.
Yes, this issue has existed for many many prior versions.
HOWEVER, my experience has been that although the validation fails, the Recovery works. The full base plus any single differential should result in a successful restore--at least it always has for me.