Upgrading Multiboot from HDD to SSD : Is offset problem with Cloning

The latest versions of Acronis are pretty good with handling SSDs, and your restores/clone operations should produce aligned SSDs.

Unfortunately Acronis Clone disk utility does not support multiboot systems thus your problems that you have had, see the link below bullet point 2:

http://www.acronis.com/en-us/support/documentation/ATI2016/index.html#3…

You would be better off using the bootable recovery media to create a backup of the mutiboot disk and restore that image to the SSD. 

Hi

Thanks for the info. Now how do I upgrade to accomplish this?
I just purchase the upgrade from TIH 2011 to TIH 2016. Also the upgrade to DD 12 from DD 10 or 10.5 . I'm not sure I could recheck the version.
Installed in my current desktop ,self built, [Multiboot W7 + W72 + XPsP3] is the O/S selector
from the TIH 2011. In the past I've had some difficulties (because of lack of really understanding exactly how the boot manager process works with the "handover" from Acronis to choose the desired O/S, be it winexe (W7) or  boot.ini (XP)
 It seems that I should UNINSTALL the older versions of TIH and DD PRIOR to the upgrade.
Thats in Acronis FAQ's info. But I'm FEARFUL of what that might do to the O/S Selector in the
multiboot environment. I've struggled for years with MBR error messages in these kind of situations. They mostly occurred within the context of "cloning" one disk to another but NOW I understand that I've been totally wrong about Acronis's ability to "clone" in a multiboot environment.

BACK UP and RESTORES are the ONLY viable method with Multiboots to duplicate a 2nd HDD.
Knowing I need to upgrade DD 12 to avoid the alignment problem. Should I do that in the "original"
W7 partition which includes Sector 0 and Boot info. Then Backup and Restore that partition to the NEW
SSD. In that new partition then Upgrade the TIH and Install the O/S selector. And go from there.

Any other thoughts about the multiboot reinstall would be very much appreciated

Thanks

Richard

Richard, if you are just swapping drives, instead of taking a "clone", I would take a full disk image with all paritions and save the backup to another drive - if possible, please do some from the offline bootable recovery media as well - that rules out any possible issues with Windows or 3rd party apps when taking your image.  

Then restore that image, to include all paritions (even the MBR track 0) to the new hard drive.  The result should be the same as cloning, but without the restrictions of cloning (sector size, etc) and you'll have a nice image of the system, as of the most current possible point in time, to fall back on in case you ever need it.

Alternatively, with multiboot systems that have custom BCD, you may want to consider doing a hardware clone instead.  You can get a hard drive cloning dock for less than $50.  The only issue with these is that you must be cloning from a drive of equal or larger size - it does not work if you want to clone to a smaller drive.

Here's an example of cheap physical hard drive cloner - it can be cloned completely independently of any computer or OS - it just needs power to perform the clone: http://www.amazon.com/Inateck-Dual-Bay-Docking-Function-Tool-free/dp/B0…

Enchantech
Hi,

Thanks. for the info. Rather than repeat myself please check my Post about the SSD reply, above which will give some further info about my frustration in the "cloning" process.

I'm really not an IT person.But have taught myself as best I can about computers. At 75 I got into them because of music @ 55. This does not come naturally. So after 4 years trying to "clone" I now understand it is a "no go" with Acronis. Wish I would have known that earlier.

Now I'm attempting to change from HDD to SSD. That will require that I Upgrade both the
my current Acronis TIH 2011 and DD 10 to then newer THI ver 2016 and  DD 12.
I'm not clear on how to do that without creating "mayhem". Refer last Post, please.

Quite possibly you might have some info that might help me first to Upgrade. Second to
choose a method to Restore a partition to the SSD and how to take "CARE" in not
disrupting the O/S selector so that the machine in unuseable.

Any thought and help would be most appreciated. And thanks for the "link".
Read the link : Understand the "cloning" that's obvious, NOW. But don't quite understand some other thoughts. I 've heard of IDE controllers HDD or  SATA controllers for HDD. In external cases these might have a USB Buss or Firewire Buss etc.  What is a USB Hard Drive. Is that a reference to a "thumb drive" with and O/S residing on it? IT has its own languange which sometimes is hard for me to decipher.

Thanks

Richard

Richard, to keep things simple and avoid having to upgrade to a newer version of Acronis that you're not sure about for your setup, I'd stick with the physical hard drive cloner option. For $37 it's a cheap solution... and then you can go about using ATIH for backups as you have been.  

At this point in the game though, your Acronis 2011 is getting long in the tooth and likley to cause issues when you move to newer down the road. A lot has changed with new motherboards, chipsets and the move from Legacy Bios to UEFI Bios.  The newer versions have a lot more compatibilty for these new devices.

Again though, instead of clone operation, you can, instead, take a full disk image and restore that image to the new hard drive and it should have the same effect as cloning (making your new hard drive boot like your old one) and that should rule out any of the negatives of the "clone" process since backup and restoer is less restrictive when it comes to dual boot systems in terms of functionality.

I floored here Bobbo,

Let me explain what and why I'm doing what I'm doing. With the multiboot system that fuctions
in a recording environment (personal) and one who has no resources to help me when disaster strikes. I not only Backup each partition from the currently utilized HDD but I also want a
"clone" /mirror or Copy of that ENTIRE original so when something goes bad I have recourse.
I'm sure everyone who is locked into their computer would want the same safety net. I barely have the skills to accomplish this however and am usually above my pay grade.
So I have this system and now I also want to ugrade the entire system from HDD to SSD
once again to avoid HDD (mechanical) failure.

What do you mean by "swapping drives". The "clone drive sits inside the Antec case unpowered. When I reconfigure the original HDD with app upgrades and new app installations
 I then want to upgrade (clone) the "spare".  Isn't a <<full disk image with all partition>>
a clone/mirror. I do understand that MBR and Track 0 reside on that first available sector BEFORE the first O/S and  is somehow connected (like the "System Reserve" which has "flumoxed" me ...I had built a 2nd exact component desktop to the currently refernece one, but I knew nothing about the installation process with/ or without System Reserve when I built them 5 yrs ago...)

What does offline bootable recovery media mean. Acronis has Bootable media disks which I use. Off line means "what"? Could you clarify that for me. To me its "not connected to the internet.

When I got into "cloning" with Acronis..and got those MBR Error messages. I searched for
any thing :  like Easy BCD to attemp to resolve them. Could not understand how to utilize the
app in a multiboot enviroment. Whether it could function with Acronis and its O/S boot loader.
There is so little info from Acronis......I really appreciate your input here. It seems that your really pointing in the right direction. For I am very much lost. Currently I'm functioning OK but my computers are not properly configured and not as stable as I would like.  So,finally I turned to professional help....but that
not only quite expensive most importantly it makes me reliant on someone else and then I can not
change configurations, which is what I need to do constantly. Reading thru your Post:

What is multiboot system with custom BCD? I know this Acronym as "Boot Configuration Details/Data"

A hardware cloning device seems so cheap.....I minor price to pay for maintaining sanity.

Possibility of a PM might be a a miracle of understanding for me

Thanks whatever happens. I'll check oput the device

Richard

Hi,

The instant I saw it. It is ordered.

I'll see what it does when it comes. I'd like to continue the info exchange, however.

Thanks

Richard

Hi Richard, sorry for muddying the waters...

offline bootable recovery = , yes, I mean your Acronis DVD or USB to boot into Acronis recovery from outside of Windows - sounds like you do that already.

BCD = boot configuration data.  It is a file on the disk that tells the bios what OS are available to boot into.  Often times, users use third party tools to modify the file using something like EasyBCD when they want to make a multiboot system.  While this makes it easy to pick the options after you reboot the system, it can possibly make cloning more difficult since it creates a custom BCD file that Windows may not take into consideration after a clone.  If you're not using something like this and your multiboot options are there simply because you partioned your drive and Windows created your multiboot entries, please disregard.

Swapping drives = you're just upgrading from one drive to a new one in the same system (which it sounds like you are).  This keeps things simple which is good. Some people want to clone and then move the cloned drive into a differetnt computer, making things more difficult.

The Acronis software "clone" feature has some restrictions. Usually, the one that gets people when cloning is that SSD's often have a different sector size (4K) where mechanical drives under 2TB usually use 512Kb sector size.  In these instances, cloning will usually fail with an MBR error like you're seeing.  A work-a-round is to take a full disk backup image, and restore that image to the new SSD instead of "cloning". The result is the same, but without the sector size limitation of cloning through software.  I typcially don't clone and usually back and restore as it has always worked for me, but cloning does not because it is more restrictive.

Alternatively, if you're able to get into the computer and pull the original drive, then you can just use one of those hard drive dupcliating docks to "physically" clone your existing hard drive to your new SSD.  These work great as they are a sector-by-sector (1's and 0's copy) from drive to drive and there is no software involved at all so the clone is a true clone at the most basic level.  These work great if you don't mind physcially moving a drive out of a computer to do this since they for cloning all kinds of different drives regardless of sectgor size of the disks.  There main limitation with the hardware clones though, is that you can't clone from a larger disk to a smaller disk.  You can only physcially clone from same size disks, or when physcially cloning from a smaller disk to a larger disk.  When going from a smaller disk to a larger disk, when you first boot up to the clone it will be exactly the same size as the original disk.  You would then need to use Windows Disk manager to extend the disk out to use the rest of the available space. 

Sincerest of thanks,

This is about the clearerst info I've ever received about my situation.

Yes I use the Acronis Boot Disk constantly to make Backups and Restores. It has always worked flawlessly. The only problem I can recall is when I've Restored my W7 partition on my 2nd build which has the System Reserve on it. I have not realized "its" significance till recently. So one most Back up BOTH the First Physical Partition with its System Reserve and Restore it similarly. I have learned this, recently.

I considered installing easy BCD because of the current problem which I have with Computer
#1 (No System Reserve) : W7 + W72 + XPSP3. I recently reconfigured and upgraded multiple
audio applications to all 3 partitions. Everything was stable and fine. So I used the Acronis
boot disk to "clone" this new configuration to the "spare" equal sized HDD (mechanical).
So I'm not speaking about going to another computer. This is all in reference to the same environment. Either computer #1 w/o System Reserve and Computer #2 w/ System Reserve.
Message is always..."Clone successful. I've opened the case hundreds of times. I'm switching
hardware, cables, none of that is problemmatic.

So switch cables and power the newly CLONED drive. Boot it up. It is fine. The Acronis O/S selector. Gives me choices. Boot into all 3 parttitions. Fine. NEXT I switch the hardware configuration and power the ORIGINAL HDD. I get MBR ERROR #3 (XP partition I assume something in the .INI file needs editing...my DOS skill are as ancient as me). Press Enter and NOW MBR Error #1...again Enter MBR ERROR #2. Obviously "Acronis can not clone"
without "messing up the boot sector". Something I was not aware of.  I can no longer boot into the "original HDD".

I return to the "Cloned" HDD which booted fine before I switch the configuration and now I
get the same sequence of Errors. Exact Replication of what has ALWAY happened when I
have attempted to "Clone" with Acronis. I do not ever switch the cable between controllers.

My fall back is that I put in the Acronis Boot Repair disk. Power on the computer and its like
it boots directly from the repair disk CDROM and then it boots to Acronis on theHDD.
So the only way I can use the computer is with the Acronis Boot Disk in the optical Drive.

The partitions are all fine. The computer works perfectly except for this "workaround".
Is there any way to reasonable correct this. I do, as I always do, have Acronis Backups
of each of the partitions. I'm always prudent there. But oftentimes I don't have the fundamental knowledge to carry this stuff thru to completion.

I purchased the "Cloning device". I am also in the process of buying some older Samsung
500GB SATA HDD which I can use as "dummy drives" to duplicate and test out procedural
sequences. That seems to be the only way I can learn. I need to get this ENTIRE process down without ERRORS since I'm constantly needing to change things as my music changes.

Do you have any ideas as to how I can eliminate the need for the Acronis Repair disk at bootup OR. How to
Get past the MBR errors problems.OR  How can I repair the Boot Record.

From now on I'll duplicate the "archival HDD " only thru COPY and Restore with Acronis Boot Disk. Building the paritions ONLY as SEPARATE partition Restorations. Any help in correcting where I'm at currently?

Then I need to upgrade the Acronis which will be "dicey" . The O/S Selector only being on
the first W7 partition means I should easily be able to upgrade the W7-2 and the XP but
I'm fearful installing the TIH 2016 on the first partition. Could I upgrade the partition with
TIH 2016 and NOT install the O/S and hope it "passes thru" the upgrade process without flatering or should
I try to install the OS Selector w/ the TIH 2016 which may just "blowup" the partition Selector and be totally unbootable.  Thats where I thought I could experiment with the Copy Machine and the
"dummy HDD's. I will need to upgrade because I want to convert to SSD's.

And really I'm exceedingly grateful that anyone is even "listening" out there in the blogoshpere.

Sincerest thanks

Richard

Your reference to "long in the tooth" is right on target....a retired dentis and musician

Richard,

I'l be on honest.  I'm not the best person to consult on multiboot itself.  For basic muliboot installs of 2 OS, I've had some luck, but even then I found things to get too dicey at one point or another so i've pretty much given up on dual/multiboot.  A lot of people do have success with them and a know that easybcd is one of the tools that people often use to take care of the bootloader - I'm a novice with it though. 

However, I have had some experience repairing/building the BCD menu again, but have some questions before I can help.

1) Are you able to boot any of your multiboot OS after the MBR error returns, or does this just happen with the XP one at the end of the disk?

2) You're saying that once the MBR error occurs, nothing boots, but then, if you put in the Acronis bootable media on CD, it somehow let's you into Windows after that?

I'd say, let's work on resolving the BCD/boot error first to get that down and then we can worry about upgrades after that.  

In the futre, after a clone, instead of booting XP first (last OS on disk), I would boot each OS install in order and check each one to see if they boot and if booting them in order updates the BCD correctly then, allowing things to work without issue after that. 

For now, as long as you have a backup image to revert to, I would suggest trying the following to repair the BCD menu on your drive, starting with a Windows 7 repair (or installer) disc to fix Windows 7 if it is not booting either since it is at the front fo the disk partition scheme:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/927392

bascially...

Use Win7 install disc and access the command prompt.

Type in these comands and press enter after each one

bootrec /FixMbr
bootrec /FixBoot
bootrec /RebuildBcd

Reboot and test each OS, starting with the order they are partitioned on the drive.

Hi

I'm  saying that once the MBR error occurs, nothing boots, but then, if you put in the Acronis bootable media on CD, it somehow let's you into Windows after that? Exactly correct.
And yes, I typically boot from Physical O/S #1...to #2 O/S to #3 (which is XP). I do that realizing
the the boot loader from XP is NTLDR legacy and W7 uses (Ithink ) win.exe which is more robust.
I always do this: Reboot and test each OS, starting with the order they are partitioned on the drive.

Are you saying: Use the Installation disk of W7Pro. The Bios Boot sequence is already set to boot from Bootable  CDRom first (hence the boot from the repair disk).
1. If I do this won't the attempt to install the O/S. In other words how do I get the CMD prompt.
2. I know about the "Repair" feature but that has been an inconsistant result procedure
3. Easy enoughto follow the macro  commands.
4. But I'm hesitant right now because I've been struggling with this for 2 months now and with a system crash....understand my last BACKUP will for sure have the same BCD error. I have several within the last 2 months but I've also made many config changes. All the upgrades were due to may changing my system from W7 + XP1 + XP2....to W7 + W7-2 + XP. Been doing this on 2 different computer and 6 O/S.

I shall proceed cautiously. I'm pretty "frazzled by the problem at this point". You have been my first bit of "mental clearing and assistance".  Be patient with me, I'll move forward.

As an aside, have you any experience with the Acronis O/S repair functionality. Sometimes in the past ( when the config was 2 XP's) I have used it. Been somewhat sucessful and sometimes a brick wall.

Thanks again.....I need to meditate before going there. The process appears simple, the results may be devastating. Or they might be my first sign of light. Only time  will tell here.

Richard

Hi,

The link answers my first question. The Bootrec.exe tool is in the System Recovery Options.  /FixMbr is probably as far as I'll let myself go. But then /FixBoot...that just references the boot sector. There is only "one" boot sector in a multiboot HDD correct?

I wish I understood where Acrois O/S selector enters in this process. I've been advised that the Acronis takes over just after the BIOS and post....so question becomes will /FixBoot damage O/S Selector in Acronis. Here's where having a "dummy HDD" would help answer the question. If it fails just try it again on another "mlirrored"  HDD. I may just wait for the Amazon cloner to come and I'm about to purchase some same size used Samsung 500GB Sata's. Spending a lot of money to retain or really regain sanity here and learn how to fix something that has vexed me for 5 years.

The extra hardware : Might allay my fears.

I'll return

Richard

Hi Richard, I'm heading on vacation for a couple of weeks so may not be able to pop in for a bit.  I do hope someone else can chime in in the meantime if you run into issues.

Before you do anyting, take one full "offline" backup - should things go south before they get better, you can still restore your image to how things are now.  Or, wait until you get your new hard drive cloner and clone with that to another disk for safekeeping. Worst case, you recover to where you are right now so you won't be in too bad of shape so don't stress too much.  Mabye take an image and a hard drive clone - just to be extra cautious if you have the drives to store them both.

In the meantime, you could actually try easybcd free (free for home use).  You don't actually have to make changes, but it may show what your bootloader looks like now and can post some screenshots.  Steve Smith is familiar with the program (PM him if you need to) and can probably help out with what you're seeing and possibly go from there. 

Me, with a good backup, I'd drive in wiht the Windows repair commands and hope they do the trick.  If not, we'll, maybe it gets better, maybe it gets worse, but that's what the backups are for.  

Basically the acronis bootloader is supposed to just be temporary and is only supposed to invoke when you start the clone from within Windows as there . It sounds like you said you started the clone with the offline bootable media, so not sure why it would be there at all at this point.

I just downloaded easybcdfree (you don't even have to register, just click download).  It will at least tell you what is in your bootloader at this point.

I then downloaded ireboot by the same maker as easybcdfree.  It is supposed to give you a startmenu icon to easily pick what gets booted into next reboot.  I dont' have a multiboot system, but this looks like it could solve your issue (depending on what it finds with easybcd installed.  Again though, probably want to take that image and/or get that second clone, just in case, but this could be an easy fix if the two work as well together as it looks likey they are meant to.

HI,

Did what you said with the W7 Install disk. All setps sequenced properly As per the MS Article. However, I got the System Recovery Dialog Box but , no option for a CMD prompt.
I'll try it again. What I did get was a GUI for REPAIR. (not CMD Prompt)
Repair Details :Name : Windows Boot Manager
Identifier [Massive Registry CLOS}
Startup Partitions Added:
Name Win7 Pro ( which all appears good till now)
PATH: Windows
Windows Device= Partition K....this throws me a bit (I do have Labelled Partition K:\ in the system) is a logical partition of an installed logical SSD (its 1TB tho)
Options: Repair and Boot (101378MB)....which when divided by 1024 = 99GB which is the
actual size of the partition....( but W7-2 is also 99GB)
Basically I think I'll go with the GUI if I can't get the CMD prompt. I'll retry the O/S Install disk again.
****
The process has unjogged my Memory. I THINK what will happen is that I will Repair the
Boot Manager and then w/o the Acronis Boot Disk I will boot into the first physical W7 partition. But the 2 other partitions will then become  inaccessible.
I'll need to go to the Acronis O/S repair function: This will generate several new Names like
"Microsoft Profession English"  probably 2 times . One for Each W7 partition and some other name for the XP. Alos included in prior Icons will be  big RED "X" associated with the original nameing of the partitions. The problem becomes finding the correct screen (W7) to boot into.............Linking the new generic name to the correct W7 partiton. i.e.from this screen into the First O/S (which new "icon link" does. Then I may be able to launch each in the proper sequence. And that it.

I also, previously, loaded Easy BCD but had no idea how to use it. And hesitated to experiment because I wasn't clear how Acronis Boot selector would handle it. Conflicts galore. I'll look at ireboot.

I'm feeling a bit more in control with this. Youve' pointed me in the right direction. Thanks so much.
 Where you going to...and wherever it is enjoy the time off.

Thanks

A thought

: Where to install the EasyBCD or ireBCD into the W7 partition with the Sector 0 , I suppose

Richard

Richard, you should install EasyBCD in your first Windows 7 partition, then you should be able to use this to fix the dual-boot issues with the MBR.  Note: Acronis Disk Director 12.0 no longer provides the Acronis OS Selector tool - this has been discontinued in the latest version of DD.

Once you have EasyBCD installed, do as follows:

• Once in EasyBCD, go to the “Bootloader Setup” page, and select “Install the Windows Vista/7 bootloader to the MBR” then “Write MBR” to get the EasyBCD bootloader back.

See image BCD Deployment.jpg attached below.

Next, add an entry for your Windows XP partition.

• Once the first step is done, head on to the “Add New Entry” page and select “Windows NT/2k/XP/2003” from the drop-down list, give it a name, then press “Add Entry” to finish. Leave the checkbox for automatic configuration checked, and do not manually change the drive in EasyBCD thereafter. The settings EasyBCD chooses may look wrong, but it’s complicated.

See image Add New Entry.jpg attached below.

You won’t be able to select the drive that your Windows XP entry points to. This is because EasyBCD will automatically search for NTLDR, the Windows XP bootloader, and pick the right drive for you. For more information, read the main Windows XP page. Don’t try changing this yourself, your system will not boot if you do!

Finally reboot your system.  If all is OK, then you will see a boot menu on startup where you can choose between your Windows 7 or Windows XP partitions.  

As you have two separate Windows 7 partitions, you will need to do one of the following actions:

If your second Windows 7 partition is visible as a drive letter from the first Windows 7 partition, you can do the same as for Windows XP and add an entry for that second Windows 7 partition.

• Once the first step is done, head on to the “Add New Entry” page and select “Windows Vista/7/8/10” from the drop-down list, give it a name then select the correct Drive letter from the drop-down list, then press “Add Entry” to finish.

See image Add New Entry 2.jpg attached below. 

If your second Windows 7 partition is not visible as a drive letter, then you can either temporarily give it a drive letter via Disk Management, or else use your OS Selector CD to boot into it, then install EasyBCD on that partition and add it from there.

For the iReboot program, you can install that on each of your three partitions, i.e. on both Windows 7 OS's and the Windows XP OS.  Once you have it installed and have corrected the BCD entries as above, then iReboot will give you a system tray icon that you can right-click on and select which OS you want to reboot to.

See image iReboot.png attached below.