True Image Home 11 GPT disks

What does windows disk management show for this external disk - is it indeed GPT? (right click on disk - properties - 'volumes' tab - partition style). If it is GPT, (you may have converted it to GPT during formatting, but I wonder how) TI2011 will not see it from bootable media and you need to convert it back to MBR type. If it is not, TI2011 should not detect it as GPT.

Howdy & thanks for your time.
Properties states that it's an NTFS formatted disk of Basic Type and Partition Style of MBR. (See attachment.)
Isn't TI supposed to be able to work with MBR types?

I would guess that some of the GPT info didn't get deleted from the drive and TI is picking it up. You could try wiping the drive (writing zeros) or using Vista or Windows 7 to "clean" it.

The TI Add new disk... wizard may also work.

Well, that took a while to do as I had to find somewhere to safeguard the files I had on the external disk before re-formatting it.

However, I have just used TI to wipe the disk and reformat but 6 hours later TI is still insisting that I can not restore from the backup archive on this disk if I boot from a rescue disk. See the attached screen shot.

Not a lot of use if I am in desperate trouble.

Any other suggestions?

Anyone?

Thanks

Have you tried saving an image to the drive and booting to the TI CD to see if it can access it?

Hi Mudcrab and thanks again for your time on this.
No, I might try your suggestion and see what happens.

What is soooo frustrating is that it worked when I first got the drive but doesn't now since reformatting and the question I have which is not explained anywhere, including on this site is, if it doesn't support GPT or whatever it is, what DOES TI support.

In other words instead of just stating that it's not supported, a suggestion as to what I SHOULD format the disk would be, on the whole, rather useful. Don't you think?

Is there anyone from Acronis who can help out on this?Does any Acronis support staff even read these forums?

I have read all sorts of stuff on basic disks, dynamic disks, GPT etc and none of it makes a hell of a lot of sense as far as this problem goes. Really all I want is some one to tell me what format the disk should be in. With that information I can probably get the job done.

What is even more frustrating is actually trying to get support from Acronis. I have just spent an hour or more going through the website, and although they promise I can contact a member of support staff, they have cunningly hidden the means to do it somewhere where I cannot find it. All, it seems, they are prepared to offer are these forums, or a knowledge base which if one has a problem that they have an answer for is great otherwise is completely useless if I can't actually get the information I require.

I'm beginning to wonder whether I have wasted my money buying 3 versions of TI (2009, 2010, 2011) if this is all the support I get. At the moment, it appears as if it is a complete waste of time having TI if I can not restore from my external hard drive - especially as it was working when I first bought it.

Regards

Incidentally, after reformatting via TI it shows as a basic type with a Partition Style of MBR.

Are you still getting the GPT warning?

Yes

Any other suggestions out there?
Like anyone from Acronis who is actually supporting this product?

I have read the bit about the difference between MBR and GPT which I still find a little confusing, as surely a formatted NTFS disk is a formatted NTFS disk.

I guess that the information I need is if TI Home does not support GPT external drives do I need to reformat as an MBR? What difference will this make, if any, to accessing the drive normally through Windows? Are there any other snags that I haven't thought of?

Regards

Do you have access to a Disk Editor to look at the sectors on the drive? I wonder if the TI "wipe" didn't clean that part. I think it's stored directly after the MBR, but I could be misremembering. When I wipe a drive I normally zero-out the starting sectors too (those located after the MBR and before the first partition) since a normal wipe sometimes ignores them.

The drive manufacturer may have a wipe tool available on their website (often it's part of the testing utilities). That should clear everything too.

Have you tried doing a "clean" of the drive using DISKPART? This is in Windows and Windows knows MBR vs. GPT. I think it should clean that part too (I haven't tested it, though). You would need to connect the drive to a Vista or Windows 7 computer since XP doesn't support it.

Another thing that might work would be to use TI to restore the MBR and Track 0 to the drive (this would delete anything on the drive). After doing this, I would disconnect and reconnected the drive and then delete and recreate the partition(s) wanted.

You could do a "dd" wipe in Linux. I've used that many times to revive screwed up flash drives. Kind of dangerous if you're not very familiar with Linux since you could accidentally wipe the wrong drive.

Thanks for your response Mudcrab.
Firstly Diskpart is apparently supported in XP, at least, when I type in diskpart /? in a CMD session it replies with the following:
Microsoft DiskPart syntax:

• diskpart [/s ] [/?]
• /s - Use a DiskPart script
• /? - Show this help screen  

So I guess it is there, but I have to say that the help is not a lot of help and neither is the MS article on how to use it. I'm afraid it's one of those esoteric descriptions which, although one sees English words they don't make much sense in the context that they are used. i.e. specialised jargon and buzzwords.

It's getting down to depths to which I have never been before and quite frankly I don't see why I should have to!! It's a simple case of how do I format an external disk to use it as back-up media for TI in such a way that it is useful. i.e. that I can restore from when using the rescue disk.

How do you use TI to restore the MBR and Track 0? I looked through the help under Disk utilities but none of them were particularly clear on what exactly they do - or maybe I'm being extra thick.

As far as this product is concerned, all I need to know is if I want to use an external USB drive, which I have been using quite successfully for several years as back-up media for TI Home, at least until I reformatted, all I need to know from Acronis support is how I should format the drive so as to enable it to work again.

To clarify, must the USB external drive be formatted as an MBR or GPT, and is either of those supported under NTFS, which is the only bit I know about formatting.

As I said before, thank you very much for your response, and I'm sorry if I go on a bit, but I am getting a little frustrated and angry at the lack of support from Acronis themselves. The means of asking a simple question of their support people and getting a simple answer is surely not too much to ask. And a response to all the people complaining about the GPT message, of "TI Home doesn't support GPT drives" doesn't help anyone when doing a search to resolve the problem.

Regards,

GPT and MBR are how the partitioning is done and configured. NTFS is a format applied to a partition. You can have NTFS partitions on either type of drive.

XP does include DISKPART, but it's a greatly limited version compared to Vista and Windows 7.

Let me run a few tests and see what gets left after TI cleans a drive.

Can you please confirm the version and build of TI that you're using when you get the GPT warning? You say that you have 2009, 2010, and 2011, but the screenshot appears to be TI 11 (the version before 2009).

Hi Mudcrab,
My current active TI version is 11.0 (build 8,101) as copied from the "About". I originally had 2009, then took the upgrade of 2010 and now 2011.
What is not clear in any of the correspondence on the forums is, if TI won't work with GPT must the disk definitely be MBR type?
I have just found an MS guide to using diskpart or Manage Disks to change a GUID to an MBR disk.
Is it worth my giving that a try? I don;t want to screw up the disk so I have been reluctant to try these sorts of things.
On the other hand the properties says that it's MBR anyway so it's all a little bit mystifying.

Cheers

Still unclear.
>My current active TI version is 11.0 (build 8,101) as copied from the "About"
Ok, and the screenshots belong to version 11 too.

>I originally had 2009, then took the upgrade of 2010 and now 2011.
This is the unclear part. TI versions are 11, 2009, 2010, 2011. You upgraded from 2009 to 2011 but now you have 11 ?

As dev-anon says... still unclear.

I think your problem may be just because you're using an older version of TI. If you installed TI 11 over one of the newer versions (TI 2009, 2010, or 2011) that can cause problems too. I suggest you figure this problem out first and then see if you even have a drive problem.

You are not going to damage the drive by changing from one type to the other. I assume the drive is still empty (no data to worry about).

I didn't have any problems with TI 11 writing to an MBR drive converted from GPT. TI 11 didn't even see the GPT drive. I used the TI 11 CD for this test. You may have received the warning message because you were in Windows.

Hmmmm! I may be labouring under a misapprehension - or can't read properly - or leaping to wild conclusions.

Or all of the above.

This is what is listed in my download directory:

TrueImage10.0_s_en.exe        06/08/2010  10:36 p.m.      
TrueImage11.8101_s_en.exe    06/08/2010  05:24 p.m.      
TrueImage2009_s_en.exe        20/12/2008  10:20 a.m.      

Fortunately I hadn't deleted previous versions.

My understanding, apparently incorrect, was that when I took the upgrades that I was moving from 2009 (the last one listed and the earliest to be downloaded) to 2010 (based on the 10 in the first file, then on to 2011 based again on the 11 in the title. The reason the first two files have the same download date is that I had occasion to uninstall/reinstall TI around that time and from memory, it wasn't clear as to which was the most current so I downloaded both again. However my memory may be slightly clouded from that time.

Currently, my Acronis account shows that I have Acronis True Image 11 Home Upgrade (English) 1 license(s) Latest Build: #8101 (138.93 MBJuly 3, 2008) available.

I hope that's clearer than I think it is.

Mudcrab, I've just read your latest. I think that I thought I was upgrading so just ran the update. Should I uninstall completely and install TrueImage11.8101_s_en.exe as a new install? At least try that first.

There is data on the disk but I am able to temporarily move it somewhere else if I have to do something further with the drive which presumably would be a re-format although it's still showing as an MBR single partition, as it always has done which is why I am terribly confused as to why TI keeps giving me the message.

Incidentally, TI has ALWAYS been able to see the drive as has Windows. It's just that TI thinks it's something it's not - apparently.

Regards

The "10" version you have looks like the first release of TI 10 (not TI 2010). This is the version before TI 11 (not TI 2011).

The "11" version you have is TI 11 (not TI 2011).

The 2009 version you have is TI 2009 and appears to be the latest version you have. I would suggest you download the latest build of 2009 (9,809). Otherwise, if you want to keep using TI 11, you already have the latest build installed.

OK. I have removed the TI 11 and installed TI 2009, although it's not the latest, so I might do that over the weekend.
No change in the response about the external disk. It's still imagining that it is a GPT.
Where now then? Is getting the latest version of 2009 likely to make any difference?

I'm still baffled as to why it still thinks that it is GPT when I formatted it last using TI Disk Utilities (File Shredder) and the properties clearly state that it is MBR.

I just had a look at Protection State which I have never looked at before, as far as I know, and find that Acronis Startup Recovery Manager is not activated.

Do you think that activating it might be the answer. I have certainly never had to do this in the past when it was working with this external disk. The question is, should the Acronis Secure Zone be on the external disk from which to boot, or is it on the laptop's own hard drive?

Ah! Something else I have just noticed is that in the Protection State tab, it shows 2 system information pie charts. The first which is obviously being used is of the laptop's hard drive. Underneath is an all grey pie chart labelled Acronis Secure Zone: 0 bytes. Opposite that is Manage Secure Zone, which if I click on it, brings a pop-up with Create ASZ. It shows 2 disks, the first showing my C & D partitions as well as a FAT16 which is presumably the Dell system restore partition.

If I click on Disk 2 I get an unlabelled drive (should be F:) which the heading of Partition has under it GUID Partition Table.

Sooooo, Acronis is seeing the disk as GPT, but according to the properties of the external drive under Windows (disk F:) it is MBR.

Confused? Well, yes, rather.

OTY
Regards

As already stated, I think there is data on the drive that is not cleared and it's confusing TI. This data may even be different than when a GPT drive is created on the PC (the MAC may do it differently).

Start TI 2009, click the Utilities section on the left, then click Cleanup utilities on the top left. You should see the following:

Click the View the current state of your drives link. Then click on the GPT drive (not on a partition). Make sure to click on the "drive" part of the graphic.

Scroll down to Sector 1 and look at the data. Is it empty?

Or does it contain GPT data?

Aha! Now we might be getting somewhere. It is NOT zeros, it does indeed contain GPT data. See attachment.

Is it as simple as just zeroising those bytes, and if so how do I zeroise what should be zero in absolute Sector 1, and is it the whole of that sector that should be zero, or is it just the first 96 bytes that is important?

I used to have a hex editor but I don't think I have it anymore, but I notice that there are a few free ones out there such as HXD which looks as though it should do the job. Cut 'n Paste would be good to stick a bunch of zeros in there.

Can it be done in TI?

I should say that I was main frame programmer for  over 40 years so I am not afraid of a little patching which I have done many times, but usually on data that I understand completely, which is why am asking the questions now as Pc disk formats are a little different to that which I am used to.

Regards

P.S. How did you manage to paste the screen shot straight into the body of your post? I couldn't find a way of doing it

When you save the post, the attached files get moved to a different folder (one specific to the thread). You need to edit your post and change the image reference to be correct.

I would try clearing sector 1 and sector 2 (set to all zeroes) and see if that helps. You should be able to use any disk editor or hex editor that lets you edit drives directly.

You may be able to do it with TI by restoring a non-GPT MBR & Track 0 to the drive. For example, if you have a backup of another drive that's standard MBR, restore the MBR & Track 0 from that backup to the problem drive.

You could also use a disk editor to wipe the drive starting at sector 0 and going for a few 100 MBs (just to make sure everything is cleaned at the start). Then use Disk Management to set it up again. Note that Windows 7's DISKPART will clear this data when a clean is done (I don't know what XP's version does).

In my tests, neither TI 11 and TI 2011 were bothered by the presense of the GPT data remaining on the drive. However, it's still worth a try, especially since yours was not formatted on a PC.

Whatever you try, copy off any important files first just in case it screws something up.

Sorry about the delay but unfortunately my disk drive managed to fall to the floor while plugged in and didn't work when I plugged it back in. I feared the worst but thought OK, that will have solved my problem.
Undid the screws and pulled it apart, pushed the contacts back in and it's all good again - well I could read it.
I then used a hex editor to zero out the first 100 or so bytes of absolute sector 1, then did a format of the drive and checked that Sector 1 was still zero.
Unfortunately when trying to do a backup I still get the same message from TI, as in It's Still a GPT disk and I can't restore f rom it if booting from the recovery disk.
Then I did what may be a disastrous thing. I noticed that TI still claimed that it was a GPT partition and as it was showing 2, the first of about 200 bytes with no drive letter which presumably system information, while the remainder of 232 GB approx was shown as drive F and apparently still a GPT partition.
I found some stuff in MS knowledge base about converting from GPT to MBR, but nothing I tried following the instructions seemed to work. Then I noticed that using diskpart I could remove a partition, so thinking that this may be the way to remove a GPT partition I deleted partition F.
Big mistake.
The drive now no longer shows up in Explorer although Disk 2 in TI still shows it there as a 232Gb disk, but no drive letter against it.
Now presumably there must be a way of getting it back to the way it was but after trying to assign a letter to the drive found I couldn't as Windows can't apparently see it.
Having screwed it I didn't what to exacerbate anything by playing around with it on the offchance of fixing it.
Any suggestions as to what I can do? Pretty please?
Regards,
Local Idiot

If you deleted the partition on the drive you will need to either recover it using a partition recovery program or recreate it using Disk Management or TI. If there was no data of value on the partition I would suggest you just recreate it.

Part of the problem is probably that you're using tools that are older and don't support GPT. I think Windows 7 or a newer partitioning program with GPT support would probably get the drive fixed. A complete wipe would probably also do it. In fact, if a complete wipe didn't fix it, probably nothing would. Note that I'm referring to a wipe that gets every sector (such as a Linux 'dd' wipe or a hex editor wipe). Does the drive manufacturer have a program available to wipe the drive?

Well, I seem to have solved the problem. It appeared that after deleteing the partition, there was a small 200MB "partition" or something that stated that it was GPT. I couldn't delete it as it was protected and I couldn't disable the read only status.
I tried recovering the partition following MS instructions with no luck, so I started searching for other answers with different search criteria.
I eventually struck gold with "how do I get rid of a gpt disk xp" but probably just "delete a gpt disk xp" would have got me there.
The instructions are found here http://blog.paulgu.com/2008/01/06/how-to-delete-gpt-protective-partitio….
Essentially it said to use Diskpart Clean to remove the GPT data, then return to Disk Management to initialise the disk. I then created a partition and assigned a drive letter to it and then formatted it.
I then ran a TI backup and voila, no error message.
Incidentally, I think the GPT info may have been put there when the Mac formatted to FAT to enable to get files from it, and subsequent formatting in XP did not wipe the info, until I got drastic with it.
The attached 2 screen shots show TI's look at the drive as it was and the second one show what it looks like after the repair and backup. As it should be a 250Gb drive I seem to have lost a few Mb in the process. A shame but still, I can live with that. It seems like the 200Mb GPT protected partition is the bit that I have lost.

Thanks for all your help, as it pointed me in the right direction despite my best efforts otherwise!!!!