Cloning sector by sector with ATIH 2018
I have been using AITH for years now. Have done many clones with it and other products before I used AITH. I have a situation where a customer has a working 2000 Server (yes... still...) with the old IDE (PATA) hard drive in it. Drive is developing bad sectors. We had done a successful clone from Acronis USB recovery stick, one IDE drive to another IDE drive.
The problem is - this is a business - using an old version of software critical to its operation. This software is about as old as the OS... after the clone we did, he has been required to reactivate (re-enter) the now missing license on the new cloned drive. The software was written to probably recognize a change in the hard driver serial number or possibly other identifiers...I am assuming this. We now have the old drive in again while we look for support... or a clone solution.
The original seller/support for this software has long since dissolved and the biz owner has no copy of license key.
I need to make an exact copy of the old hard drive - identifiers included - to thwart the software's built in security. How do I do this, if its possible with Acronis True Image Home 2018... Is the sector by sector option there from the recovery CD/USB... will it truly bring over all the hard coded indentifiers from the old drive? I am aware that with bad sectors this form of clone may fail... but getting desperate. Before I move to other products, I would like to see if this is possible with my AITH 2018. Thank you.
As an alternative, perhaps you could try doing a full disk backup (don't use sector by sector). Then restore the backup and ensure MBR 0 is selected when restoring to the disk with the offline recovery media? That should also restore the disk with the original disk signature. Unfortunately there are so many sneaky ways vendors determine if hardware is the same or not - maybe down to the disk serial # or the hidden/encrypted file Steve mentioned.
If that or the clone don't work with software, you could try a physical disk duplicator. Most are SATA connections but they make IDE adapters. The duplicators are usually around $40 on Amazon and don't require a PC. Just source drive, destination dive and press the button to clone.
Ultimately, it sounds like this business needs to take some steps trying to upgrade. I realize software limitations exist, but when relying on ancient hardware, something is bound to fail eventually. Tack on ancient software and compatibility or vulnerability are compounded on top. If the business is critical, it might be good to contact the software vendor to see if they have an upgrade path or way of transferring the software license to a newer OS.
Of not, maybe it could run in a VM on more modern hardware if the manufacturer could help with a license transfer?
Rob, the core issue here with using a VM etc is the following initial statement:
The original seller/support for this software has long since dissolved and the biz owner has no copy of license key.
Using a physical disk duplicator might be a more viable solution provided it can accept IDE / PATA drives, and the OP can obtain such drives of the necessary capacity!
Without knowing what the actual core software is, we can only speculate on how it was / is activated and whether there are any known methods to transfer the activation or recover the working license key?
Yeah, completely missed that ?.
If the software manufacturer is long gone, that certainly limits options. It's not a sustainable business model for the long term if it's that old and there's no support for transferring or upgrading.
One of these IDE to SATA adapters should work in a dock unless it's some askew fit.
Kingwin SSD/SATA to IDE Bridge Board Adapter, Convert All SATA Devices Easily to IDE. Support 2.5 Inch, 3.5 Inch HDD, & Compatible w/ SATA I/II/III Hard Drives https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002SZDOM6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_lG2wCbG2S00B2
And here's a standalone SATA duplicator dock example. There all all kinds in a similar price range.
USB 3.0 SATA Hard Drive Duplicator & Eraser Dock - Standalone 2.5/3.5in HDD & SSD Eraser and Cloner - Duplicator & Sanitizer https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00G6TG5YE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_6J2wCbN2KM22F
Actually, they make an IDE to SATA dock too, but it's considerably more expensive.
**Update, this one is $65 and says it does both too
StarTech.com Universal Hard Drive Docking Station - SATA and IDE Dock - 2.5in & 3.5in HDD and SSD Docking Station with UASP & SATA III https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00T0ZRAOK/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_PX2wCbWA8FBEM
Backup everything first, no matter what, to be safe though!!
Thanks for the comments all. I had a wonderful flu that has lasted 4 weeks and limited my work to only immediate needs. But I'm back now. To answer your comments as best I can:
Cloning with the PC is something I have been doing since Ghost 1.0. I stopped using Ghost after version 14. What I need to clone here is the drive identifier(s). This includes the serial number and from a test I did years ago - apparently may clone the physical attributes as well. I must have used Ghost and chose an option that would do such as I ended up cloning to a larger physical drive that ended up then as a smaller capacity - the same as the source drive with it's serial number and heads,cylinders, sector info. Basically changed the target drive. I believe this type of clone will bring over even hidden sector data, any method they used if involving hard drive. I have now a new PATA drive that is identical to the source drive and wish to attempt the same. I don't see that Acronis will do this. That was so long ago I am not sure it was even Ghost I used. I have done the searching for any similar case with others. Its not a common software and there are no hits.
The business owner is well aware that his setup is on the brink of disaster at best, with the old computer, OS and hard drive failing. The software he uses can be upgraded, but tells me it would also require, according to the software vendor,that he replace all his other equipment... terminals etc. This is a market and it would cost 60K to do so. Thats what happens when you don't stay up with the times... so we're trying this.
Thanks for the links Bobbo, I might get that drive duplicator. I use docks for my cloning, have tried an independent unit like that yet that requires no OS. I might also install the old Ghost I have again on an older OS and see if I can find the option I am searching for. I am fanatical re: 'backing up first'.
Please add to your comments if you have more to offer. I do appreciate your advice and knowledge here. Thank you.
Mark, in a nutshell yes, it should be possible. I cloned my drive to two different drives recently and both booted with all software licenses in tact and the OS still licensed.
First and foremost, take a full disk backup. It certainly won't hurt to do a sector by sector backup. It's usually not needed. If the backup fails because of bad sectors, then try sector by sector.
At that point you can try to clone (always use rescue media for this!!!! Don't start from windows!!!!) When done, remove the original drive, leave it disconnected and put the clone on the same connection as the original before attempting to boot. You may need to check the bios boot order and be sure it's the first boot priority still .
Alternatively, you can restore the backup and be sure to select the MBR track0 option. This should bring over the disk info so it appears to the OS as the original drive.
In most cases, one of the options should do the trick. Ultimately though, it really depends on what the application is looking for that will determine if it remains licensed or not. In some cases, it's the NIC Mac address and that won't be the issue here (but can be fixed by cloning the Mac address to a new NIC too). If it's the disk signature then the recovery or clone should work just fine.
Regardless, get your full disk backup done as soon as possible before the disk gets any worse.
I've done a lot of testing using cloning capable software. A number of them offer a sector by sector clone option. In my tests only one duplicated the disk signature from the source to the clone. That software is AOMEI Partition Assistant 8.0. You should try that first. Acronis True Image doesn't offer a sector by sector clone. Make sure you do it from recovery media not from Windows.
I would also avoid using a disk duplicator to clone the disk. Be careful and read reviews about them. They are cheap and tend to ruin the formatting of the source disk.
I haven't experienced issues with the clone docks causing problems, but did read a thread recently where someone else did. You just never know. But that's why backups can be good, just in case.
And it should be very safe to backup, remove original disk, restore backup with MBR track 0 to new drive and attach to the same connector where original was and attempt to boot and verify licensing and usability of the restore.
If things don't go as planned, he can return to the original drive instead or attempt cloning next. I really don't see why it would need to be sector by sector if the disk signature I'd being ported over, but if it does, then a sector by sector backup and recovery is the best try in my opinion - regardless of the backup software used. With a backup (or backups) there is hope still.
Thanks Mustang, This AOMEI looks more like what I need right now. I will get a copy of the Pro version and play with it. I am not seeing the option for sector by sector in ATIH 2018 as well. Unless its a command line option. And what little time so far I have been searching for such, I haven't found it. I have plenty of hard drives here to experiment with. I may need another flavor of Acronis for that option.
Mark, I hope it works out! No matter what, take a backup first!
Bobbo,
Thanks, anyone with any real time put into disk operations, or sensitive OS troubleshooting and related better know to backup before making changes or manipulating disks... if not, they haven't been doing this very long, or aren't very bright maybe and will learn the hard way. I always have this covered. Right now I am experimenting with spare disks I have until I get the right result, before I again do a clone with the customers disk. With just the standard cloning I have done with Acronis, Norton and maybe a couple freebies I have not had to be concerned about the MBR making it over nor losing Windows license... funny only one application comes to mind though... Quicken... seems to force having to enter license again on replacement drive. I believe too that I have had Office versions sometimes do this. Maybe actually having to again activate Windows now that I am tapping that area in my head. But I always get by. So maybe Microsoft and their anti-pirating scheme actually did get me a few times.
We have attempted cloning already - thats why I am here... we lost the license to this old software on the new drive as a result.
My cloning experience has usually resulted in a bootable drive - the MBR gets cloned without having to specify so.The drive signature is part of the MBR, but the MBR doesn't contain the identifiers that I need like serial number, and as I mentioned above I did a clone long ago using an option - I believe was sector by sector, (I may be wrong on the option as it was years ago), where the actual physical attributes were burned into whatever sector wherever that made the target drive phsically identical, though it wasn't before the clone...(Heads, Cylinders, Sectors). Needless to say that drive was changed and back then I didn't see a way to change it back... it was another 'experiment'.
If I get to this soon and am successful, I will let you all know what I ended up with.
Thanks for the help All!
Mark, totally understand!
I'd still press forward with the sector by sector backup and restore to see if the results are different from the clone.
If Acronis, nor Aomei do the trick, clone docks are still viable. I'm sure not all are created equal and some could be dangerous. I've used a sabrent usb 3.0/standalones at work for 6-7 years and an Inatek at home and neither has corrupted a source drive.
We also bought an industrial 7-bay Kangaru at work which was pricey, but man it works great - even on encrypted drives. They have a one to one clone dock too, never used it, but if it has the technlogy of the 7-bay under the hood, I'd recommend it in a heartbeat.
https://www.kanguru.com/mobile/m.duplicators-kanguru-mobile-clone-hd-1-to-1-duplicator.html
https://www.kanguru.com/mobile/m.duplicators-hard-drive-solid-state-drive.html
Mark, totally understand!
I'd still press forward with the sector by sector backup and restore to see if the results are different from the clone.
If Acronis, nor Aomei do the trick, clone docks are still viable. I'm sure not all are created equal and some could be dangerous. I've used a sabrent usb 3.0/standalones at work for 6-7 years and an Inatek at home and neither has corrupted a source drive.
We also bought an industrial 7-bay Kangaru at work which was pricey, but man it works great - even on encrypted drives. They have a one to one clone dock too, never used it, but if it has the technlogy of the 7-bay under the hood, I'd recommend it in a heartbeat.
https://www.kanguru.com/mobile/m.duplicators-kanguru-mobile-clone-hd-1-to-1-duplicator.html
https://www.kanguru.com/mobile/m.duplicators-hard-drive-solid-state-drive.html
Some more info for you. My previous cloning tests were done with GPT Windows 10 systems. As I mentioned, AOMEI Partition Assistant 8.0 was the only one that duplicated the disk signature. As you may know, duplicate disk signatures are dangerous in a UEFI system. Having two disk with the same signature and the same OS during POST will cause the UEFI firmware to make changes to the BCD boot characteristics. Sometimes this actually causes both systems to become unbootable. They can be fixed if you understand how to make corrections to the BCD. That explains why most cloning software doesn't duplicate the disk signature.
I just ran a test sector by sector clone on a Windows 7 32 bit MBR system using AOMEI Partition Assistant 8.0 (free version). The result was a clone that did not have the same disk signature as the source disk. In fact, the clone was not bootable and a Windows Startup Repair didn't fix it. I'll have to look at the BCD to see if I can fix it manually. I'll also try again using the Professional version to see if the result is the same. I'll let you know what I find.
Thanks Bobbo for the info on Kanguru, I will look into the one with both SATA and PATA interfacing. I just did a sector by sector backup as you suggested and then a restore to a different hard drive and got the same results as a clone - the S/N didn't change on the target like I was hoping. I know there are ways to change the S/N and signature other than cloning/backup... but again there has to be a sector other than that which contains the signature and the serial number/physical parameter info. Years ago there were a few destructive viruses that targeted this sector(s) and would wipe them or change them so you would lose all on the drive and not be able to use the drive again, making the drive unidentifiable. I imagine this was a boot sector virus that probably unloaded payload before the OS loaded. I don't remember the specifics.
Mustang, yeah there are particulars as to booting type and identical signatures, something to be careful to remember. Interesting your MBR clone lost boot though. This project is with Windows 2000 server for the OS... the first attempt we made with the customer was an Acronis Backup of the entire drive - all partitions. We could not boot that either. Instead of fixing boot.ini or sys'ing the drive I just went to a clone attempt - it booted but here I am with the lost serial number in the software. So I want to do a clone that clones all of the source drive, all outside of the partitions as well.
I tested using the Professional version of AOMEI Partition Assistant 8.0. The results for the Sector by Sector clone were the same. I was not able to repair the Windows 7 cloned disk. It wasn't a BCD, MBR or boot sector error. It was some form of formatting problem with the OS partition. Partitioning software showed the partition as NTFS with a drive letter and the proper amount of space used. The A43 file manager showed a drive letter, but couldn't display any folders. Explorer++ showed it with a drive letter, but gave an error that the partition would need to be formatted before it could be used.
I did the clone again this time selecting a regular clone instead of a sector by sector clone. This time it worked and gave a bootable clone. I'll have to withdraw my recommendation of AOMEI for MBR disks.
Here's a list of other programs I found that I was able to do a successful clone of a GPT system with a sector by sector method:
1. EaseUS Todo Backup 12.0
2. EaseUS Disk Copy 3.0
3. Macrium Reflect Home 7.2
Going back over my notes I found it was EaseUS Disk Copy 3.0 that duplicated the disk signature not AOMEI. Sorry for the wrong information.
Mark,
I know you mentioned serial numbers so not sure if this will help you at all. If you need to retrieve product keys sometimes called registration numbers, there is an app made by One up LTD called Recover Keys which can retrieve these even on hard drives from other computers. You just point the app at the drive and it will retrieve the numbers.
I have used it in the past and found it to be of great help. Link below
Belarc advisor is free and can also grab software keys in the report for most products. If it's just the key that is "key" maybe something like this would do it?
The serial has to be stored somewhere in the original disk if it's not using an RSA key or thumb drive like device as well.
What's the program called? Maybe we can help you look for clues if nothing else is working.
No sweat Mustang, thanks for updating me on this. I'll look at the other you used - I might even have that.
Enchantech - I will look at this too.
Bobbo - I use Belarc, I believe it will only report license numbers for specific applications designed to run in Windows. The application I am dealing with almost looks like its running in a DOS shell... its that old.
Funny - I take good notes but I don't have the name of that software here.... Its been a few weeks since I was onsite, owner has been out of town. I have to get reacquainted with the issue soon - I'll let you know. Its one of those privately written softwares... you probably have never heard of it.
This is one of those 'you don't want to give up on, but are almost ready to tell the owner to just spend the 60K and upgrade' deals... I am tenacious though.
Thanks All!