ATI 2020 File/Folder Backup and Defragmentation / Trim

Robert, any form of defragmentation can have an impact on backup files but I would expect this to impact more on Disks & Partitions type backups, rather than Files & Folders, as the former looks for changes at a disk block / sector level, whereas I would expect the latter to be looking at the files selected for the source data.

Robert,

Question, why do you run defragmentation on your SSD?  Defrag of an SSD is not recommended as any gain by defrag is offset by the write penalty of running defrag.

You can use Windows disk Optimization via PowerShell which will invoke TRIM on the SSD and optimize the drive.  Use an Admin PowerShell instance and run the command below.

Optimize-Volume -DriveLetter YourDriveLetter -ReTrim -Verbose

Replace the YourDriveLetter with the letter of the drive you wish to Optimize. 

Example:Optimize-Volume -DriveLetter C: -ReTrim -Verbose

Running this optimization I have not seen any adverse effects on backups of my SSD's like that noted in your post.

Hello Enchantec, Hello Steve 

First: Thank You a lot  for your answers and feedback.

Before reading the Feedback of Enchantec, I was not even aware of the "Trim" functionality.

After reading that useful feedback, I tried to understand (a little bit) what "Trim" is and whether it was active on my new Windows 10 PC, that I got just before Christmas....

On my new Windows 10 PC: "Trim" is active, is scheduled automatically once a month, and has probably been scheduled for the first time a couple of days ago, just  before creating my latest  ATI Backup Version (which was the first ATI 2020 Backup Version; previous ATI Backup Versions have been created with ATI 2018) .Also, I have the impression that on my new PC, Defrag has never run for the SSDs.

I have now the impression, that it has not been Defrag that resulted in the huge Incremental Backup Version of around 350GB....but that it has instead been "Trim" (around two weeks ago, my SSD was nearly full and I therefore performed massive deletes....which eventually resulted probably in massive Trim activities and hence in a huge Incremental Backup version).

---

Based on your answers, I got the impression that even Differential and Incremental File/Folder Backup Versions will get impacted by Defrag and by Trim. Conceptually, this seems quite odd .... But this is how ATI has been designed and ATI users will need to live with it.. 

My hope for the future:  I will not have again often huge Trim activities: 

Thanks again

Best regards

Robert

If you are running Windows 10 the defrag setting should do Trim rather than defragging (assuming you are using the native Windows 10 app - other apps may not be SSD aware). It does so on my Windows 10 Pro 64 and Windows 10 Enterprise 64 PCs.

Ian

Thank You Ian

By the way: the results of Google searches indicate, that users should NOT deactivate the SSD Optimalization/Trim functionality of Windows 10.  I will observe that recommendation .

Bad news!

I created again an ATI 2020 Incremental Backup Version of the Volume Backup of my SSD that contains around 800 GB of data (mostly Photo Files). This is now the second Incremental Backup in a row that has a huge size of around 350 GB... even though  only few of the files of that SSD have changed.

ATI 2020 can not be right:  two Incremental Backups in a row that have a huge size of around 350 GB! 

I do not know what is the cause pof these problems: the previous Trim?

Or is it that another problem (a more general problem of ATI 2020 with Incremental Backups)?
In my particular case the incremental Backup has been defined with ATI 2018  and the first Backup Versions have been created with ATI 2018. It is the ATI 2020 Incremental versions that are huge.

Robert, I do not claim to be an expert on SSD's and Trim etc, but I would not expect trim to have such an effect on Files & Folders backups, especially if only a small number of changes have been made.

Out of interest, if you have both the time and the space to do so, can you try running back to back incrementals for this data with no source changes involved, and no trim activity?  This may show that there is something else involved here?  Even SSD's can go bad unfortunately and they tend to fall off the cliff rather rapidly when they do!

Robert,

As information, trim only activates what's known as garbage collection on an SSD.  At that point it is the controller embedded on the SSD that does the work.  That work is simply to mark each empty memory cell that was previously occupied as empty and available for write once again.  This is a logical step at the controller level rather than a physical step at the cell level thus not involving writing to any memory cells.

For this reason I believe I have not seen any adverse effects in backup of an SSD and I have not and will not run defrag on any SSD. 

I suggest that you do not disable Windows 10 monthly Optimization as it performs the same function as described above and same as the PowerShell command I posted.

I agree with Steve here.  Act accordingly and report back.

Steve, you wrote me among other " I would not expect trim to have such an effect on Files & Folders backups...".

The bacbup that I am performing are not "Files and Folders Backup" but are "Volume Backups" (=Disk Image/SSD Image).

Robert, if your source disk does not contain the OS or any installed programs, then perhaps a Files & Folders backup would be a better choice?

Steve, you wrote me among other "This may show that there is something else involved here?  Even SSD's can go bad unfortunately and they tend to fall off the cliff rather rapidly when they do!" 

Is there a good tool, that can check whether my the SSD (it is a USB 3.1 Samsung T3 SSD of 1 TB) is healthy...a tool that  you would recommend to use in my case?

Also in other ATI Forum threads (in which you  have been involved). I read that that with ATI 2020 some large Full Backups (yes, I know that in my case, it is not Full Backup Versions but Incremental Backup Versions that are involved ...and there are also other differences between the two cases) have an odd behavior: they take longer to complete .. Since in my case the problems happened immediately after upgrading from ATI 2018 to ATI 2020, I wonder whether there is here something common to both problems.

I should add that in my case the Full Backup Version (and a couple of eventrual Incremenmtal Backup Versions)  have been created with ATI 2018 and that the huge incremental Backup Versions have beeen eventually created with ATI 2020 after migrating from ATI 2018 to ATI 2020. 
.

Steve you wrote me "Robert, if your source disk does not contain the OS or any installed programs, then perhaps a Files & Folders backup would be a better choice?"

1) Are ATI  Incremental and Differential Files and Folders Backups also based (like Volume Backups) on tracking changed Storage Blocks?

Or are they comparing 

- the latest backed up File content (and/or some kind of Timestamp and/or some kind of Hash Value) of every file

 - with the current content (and/or current Timestamp and/or hash values) of the file

in order to determine whether the file has changed? That could make a large performance difference.

2) Also with large amount of Data (e.g 800 GB)  on a Source Volume, when most of the data/files on that Volume needs to be subject to ATI Backups:  what is usually subtantially faster: ATI Volume Backups or ATI File/Folder Backups?, 

Thanks a lot in advance for your explanations which will help me to understand how to use ATI efficiently (including Disk space considerations) for my large Backups

Robert

Robert,

Samsung Magician software has an SSD diagnostic feature: Samsung Magician Software

1) Are ATI  Incremental and Differential Files and Folders Backups also based (like Volume Backups) on tracking changed Storage Blocks?

From the TI 2020 User Guide:

An incremental or differential backup created after a disk is defragmented might be considerably larger than usual. This is because the defragmentation program changes file locations on the disk and the backups reflect these changes. Therefore, it is recommended that you re-create a full backup after disk defragmentation

and

Changed Block Tracker (CBT)

The CBT technology accelerates the backup process when creating local incremental or differential disk-level backup versions. Changes to the disk content are continuously tracked at the block level. When a backup starts, the changes can be immediately saved to the backup.

 Hope this helps.

CrystalDiskInfo is another good utility to check the SSD.

My apologies: I answered a Post of Enchantec in this Thread as opposed  to the other Thread where Enchantec gave me feedback. I understand that this is confusing and would like to apologize fot this error.

Hello Enchantec

I am not sure to understand, -to ***which*** behavior you refer when writing” so I assume that this is the reason for ****the behavior you see ****and that behavior is to be expected in my opinion     “ .

I guess and assume, that this is the”behavior you see”  which I described in this Thread.
 

The Behavior that I described in this thread, is not the result of a large number of recently performed Photo-Editimg. Because  since beginning of around the 20th of December,  I have done only very few Photo editing.

But I can not exclude that one or another Software that got installed on my new Windows 10 PC is playing games with my many many photo files and/or with their Mettadata. For example the Block Tracking of ATI 2020; or the Bonjour software that ATI 2020 installed on my PC (and that I eventually deinstalled) , or a Photo Software that got installed together with the support of my new Epson Perfection V370 Photo Scanner, or with a new Canon Lide Scanner that I had to return), or the Trim Functionality of Windows 10, or…

What is however sure: on my new Windos 10 PC I did not see that “show-stopping” behavior

• when using  ATI 2018 (only for a couple of weeks –my use of ATI 20xx is quite new
• and before the first Trim of my SSDs with Windows 10.

Today, I made additional tests with Incremental Volume Backups of my F: SSD Volume. with ATI 2020 .

I made serires of tests with the same data of my F: SSD Volume

a) with incremental Volume Backup with a Backup that has been originally created with ATI 2018 and that is stored in a .tib File

b) with Incremental Volume Backup with a Backup that has been created with ATI 2020 and that is stored in a .tibx. File

The second serires of tests (the tests with thr .tibx File) are OK

The first series of tests (with the .tib File) are a mess. In this first series of tests, I had created the ATI Volume Backup defintion with ATI 2018, and I created both the original Full Backup Version and a couple of Incremental Backup Versions with ATI 2018. These Backup Versions created with ATI 2018 seem to be OK.

After upgrading to ATI 2020, all my  incremental Backup Versions (I created 3 of them) are huge (around 380 GB) and take long time to be created (1 hour and some few additional minutes). ...Even tough, I had updated few data on the Source SSD Volume.   

In the Second series of thests, I had created the ATI Volume Backup definition with ATI 2020 and all my Backup Versions have been created with ATI 2020. The size of all incrfemental Backups is reasonably small (around 1.5 GB - this is more or less the size of PSE Catalog Files that get updated every time I start PSE) and the Incremental Backup Versions have been created in a reasonable amount of time (around half an hour)

To conclude: it seems to me (a Layman who can err - not an ATI specialist) that while creating Incremental Backup Versions, ATI 2020 does not interpret correctly the Metadata that ATI 2018 and ATI 2020 have stored in the .tib file (or at other location where ATI stores Metadata)   and therefore ATI 2020 includes much to many Files in the tib File.

Questions: is that also your impression. Why or Why not?  
How shall i proceed to have this problem fixed by ATI development?

Robert,

Your last post here, #16, is the best yet.  For the first time I understand that you are seeing this behavior in TI 2020 when handling backup files originally created by TI 2018 having a .tib format.

I have no idea why that would be.  I have no way to test the behavior easily as I have moved entirely away from the .tib format.  If I could test this easily I would just to see what my results would be.

My suggestion would be to open a Support ticket at Contact us  click on Technical Assistance.

When contacting, describe the above post #16 as the issue and reference this Forum thread to the support person. 

Robert, in your tests of the .tibx backups how did you determine the backup size for the incrementals? Just wondering since the incrementals are in the same .tibx file as the full. Did you look at file size or are you looking at backup task activity history?

I'm also wondering what would  happen if you remove the ATI 2018 created backup task (without deleting the data) and then add it back in... if that would make a difference. I realize this may be a non-reversable operation in terms of keeping the faulty data for analysis.

Bruno, Typically I look at what File Explorer is describing to me about the tib and tibx Files on  that Disk Drive, that I am using to store many of (not all) my ATI Backups.  For the 3 Incremental Backups perfomed with ATI 2020 he shows me approximately: 356'4xx'xxx KB

I just looked again at it...and that information (Filenames, sizes, ...) is still here. ...But I do not know how to attach a File to a Post in this Forum (probably this not important in this particular case). 

I should add: in this particular case, I am using a Backup Definition created with ATI 2018 and hence there is no consolidation/Merge of the incremental Backup Data into the full Backup data. And also there is no .tibx files (there are only .tib files)

I

Bruno, You wsrote to me: " I'm also wondering what would  happen if you remove the ATI 2018 created backup task (without deleting the data) and then add it back in.   "

I am not at all an ATI expert. But if you describe me in details how I shall do that (=removal without deleting the data and adding it back): I will try to do it.

I am trying to upload a screen-print showing the tib file sizes.

The green arrow highlights the tib file of the original Full Backup Version (performed with ATI2018) . The three red arrows highlight the tib files of the three Incremental Backups performed with ATI2020. Between the green arrow and the three red arrows, you will see some tib files of incremewntal backups performed with ATI2018.

Robert, I can see what you are talking about and it does not look right.

The way to remove the backup from Acronis is as follows (I'm looking at ATI 2019 now but I think the process is the same in ATI 2020)...

Click on the backup name.
Click on the down arrow to the right of the name to open the menu.
Select Delete...
A box comes up giving you a choice to Cancel, Delete entirely or Remove. You would just Remove.
Next, at the bottom of the backup list where it says + Add backup, click the down arrow to the right of that.
Select Add existing backup.
Navigate to the folder with the .tib backup. I would suggest selecting the full backup file, or possibly the last 2018 incremental. I'm not sure if it matters which file in the chain you select.

Once the backup task it loaded, you could select the Recovery page to see the backup dates. You can then reestablish your desired settings for the task.

Then, what happens if another increment is taken.

Before going ahead with this, have you looked at the logs to see what they may indicate?

Bruno, previously I had read somewhere that a log was existing but I did not try to understand how to look at it and how to interpret it (assuming, that this was something for ATI support specialists, since I was not even able to find a descriptoion about reading the log in the ATI-provided Menus).

-------------------------------------------------------

I hereby attach the Logprint of the first Incremental Backup of ATI 2020 that resulted in a much too large incremental backup version. As you will read, the log identifies some problems such as

• "corrupted File system (??? which File system?) and fast mode of Incremental/DifferentialBackup has been disabled"....
• "sector by sector mode has been forced" 

But the Backup and the Validaztion nevertheless completed sucessfully.

Since i wasted already very much time with these problems (my important activities are not supposed to be ATI related activities) , I hope that from now onwards, it will be the skilled Acronis support specialists who will take over the detailed problem analysis and problem resolution ...I will be happy to grant them the possibility of remote access to my PC.

Robert, you have now answered the question about why the incrementals are so large... it's because of the forced sector-by-sector backup. I do not know enough about this issue to make any good recommendations other than to run chkdsk to see what file system problems may exist. I did some Google searching and it seems this issue has happened with Acronis Backup but I could not find it referenced for ATI. But since ATI 2020 uses the backup format (.tibx) used by Backup, it might be some common code that has brought you there.

Hopefully, Steve will chime in with more specific recommendations.

Also, have you reported the problem by opening a support case or sent feedback with a System Report through the ATI application?

Robert,

So I see you have discovered that TI2020 logs show that the file system of the source disk is corrupt and as a result the application has reverted to performing a sector by sector mode backup.

As Bruno points out the sector by sector backup is behind the large increase in the size of the backup files.  This is because the application is backing up all sectors on the disk including those that have no data.

Since you source disk is an SSD I recommend running a check disk on the source disk.  To do this open Explorer and click on the source disk to select it.  Right click on the disk and select Properties from the resulting menu.  Once the Properties windows displays click on the Tools tab then click on Check.  You will be asked to check the disk or you may see a message that says you do not need to check the disk as no errors are found.  In the later case click on Scan and the file system check will run.

After the scan completes you will be presented with the results.  Post back what you find.

Thank you very much Bruno and Enchantech

Bruno, thank you very much to recommend a check disk.

Enchantech, thank you very much for explaining me how to do that.

I attach the results of the check disk. 

Today, I will open the support case. . 

-----------------------------

Are you sure, that the " corrupted  File System" error-message found in the Acronis log applies to the File system of the Source Disk? Or could it as well apply to the File system within the tib File?

------------------------------

A coupled of days ago, I wrote in a Thread, that I was looking forward to an excellrent support. You are spoiling me. Thank you very much for it.

Are you sure, that the " corrupted  File System" error-message found in the Acronis log applies to the File system of the Source Disk? Or could it as well apply to the File system within the tib File?

Yes, it applies to the Source Disk, not to the file system within the resulting tib file.

The MVP Log Viewer only shows basic information for this type of error but in this case is sufficient to show the core reason for the increase in files sizes.  More detailed information is written to the backup_worker log for the backup operation but this type of log is not offered within the Log Viewer menu (as wasn't used when the tool was created).

The backup_worker logs are found in C:\ProgramData\Acronis\TrueImageHome\Logs\backup_worker folder and each log has a date / time stamp for when the backup was performed.

Robert,

Glad to hear that you were successful in running the disk check.  It is nice that you posted your results from that check however, I do not understand the language presented in the results.  Can you translate for me?

Enchantech,

An excellent Web Translator is deepl ( https://www.deepl.com/en/translator  ) 
The most (or ratrher "only") important information can be translated as follows from German to English:

An unnecessary Pointer was found  (File_Name: "Decry~1" ) in Index "\$130" in Folder \<0x 5, 0x 5>"
..... has been fixed online....
To me, despite the translation, I still do not understand that. 

Has this been the reason for the problem? I am not sure at all. Anyway, even before fixing this problem, for an Incremental Volume Backup created with ATI 2020 (as opposed to with ATI 2018) that uses .tibx files (as opposed  to .tib files), the Incremental Backup Version created by ATI 2020 had with excatly the same SSD Source no problem at all. That unnecessary pointer was for that purpose no problem. 

I meanwhile opened a Ticket for the ATI Technical Support organization. And I had to open a second one, because at the time I created the first one, I did not have yet the system Report. It is as part of the second ticket, that I uploaded the system report that they wish to get.

Robert

Steve

Thank you very much for your answer and your information

Even if I have (with my 75+ years) not the least ambition to become an ATI expert, I will take a look at the other log that you mentioned in your post. Perhaps that will help me to better understand the situation

Regards

Robert

Enchantec

I believe that the only potentially interesting information provided in the 2nd .pdf uploaded by Post   #26 is perhaps the following (after translation from German into English):

An unnnecessary (=?!) association/pointer was found ($FILE_Name: "_DECRY~1") in Index "$I30" of Folder
"\<0x5,0x5>"
...This has been repaired online .

I have at this time not the slightest idea, if it was such an error, that created the problem that I encountered. Anyway: even before the repair of that error, On my PC, ATI2020 has been able to create without problems an Incremental Volume Backup Version of exactly the same data with a Backup definition created by ATI2020 (as opposed to  ATI2018) that is stored in a .tibx File (as opposed to a .tib file)

Best regards

Robert

A Incremental Volume Backup Version by ATI2020 with the Backup definition created with ATI2018 just finished....
In the Log, I see the same error as before still occurs. And the  size of the incremental Bsackup is still hjuge: 356 44x xxx KB.

what "disk check" detected and repaired did not make any dfifference for this Incremental Volume Backup Version.

I will now leave it to the skilled and specialized ATI support specialists to handle this problem. I can not afford to spend more time on it. Meanwhile my work-around (= create with ATI2020 a new Incremental Volume Backup definiion) works for me (and probably also for others)

Robert,

Yes, that would be my recommendation to you at this point.  Please let us know how this turns out for you.