fast backup is now slow backup; what happened?

If you're using an IDE drive (either as the source or destination), check if Windows has dropped from DMA mode to PIO mode for the IDE Controller. This can be found in Device Manager.

If you boot to the TI CD and do the backup, does it take as long as before (from the CD) or does it also take longer? In other words, is it only slower in Windows?

Is the destination drive an internal or external (USB, etc.)?

MudCrab:

Thank you for your response. I am sorry that so many days passed since. I thought I would get an email when a response came, and I was distressed that none had. I will be checking the form frequently.

Let me respond to you in two ways. First, but sending some additional information that I have already written up to paste in:

I wrote you before about my problem. Since then, I have come up with some new information. Some of this may be useful, I hope.

1. In my first message, I talked about making frequent backups of my data, because that is where I first discovered the problem, and it was easy to describe. Since then I have found that the problem occurs any time a program writes to, or verifies, the CD/DVD drive. Writing or verifying elsewhere is no problem.

2. This is a business computer and I deal mostly with data disks. However, occasionally I have some audio or video to play. When I played some audio, I discovered that the sound is distorted. These same audio disks play fine elsewhere; just here is the sound distorted.

3. Following my observations in 1 and 2 above, I wondered if the drive was defective. I removed the old drive and installed a new one. For about five hours, I had fast writes to the drive, and no sound distortions. Gave me a chance to catch up on disks that I had to burn. I was already planning my note to you telling what solved the problem.

4. But wait. That evening, between 7:25 pm and 7:36 pm, the problem returned. I completed a normal fast backup at 7:25. At 7:36 I started what turned out to be a very slow erase. After the slow erase, I tested the audio disks and found distortions had returned. These problems continue to this moment.

That confuses me. The problems were in fact not there for five hours, and it was easy to see that was because of the new drive. Then the the problems returned. I did nothing unusual after installing the new drive. No other installations or updates or upgrades. No other programs running, no internet.

Does this help?

John

Second, by commenting directly on your message:

Does my additional information change any of your response?

1. DMA or PIO for IDE controller. Device Manager shows three primary channels and three secondary. The third primary shows Device 0 "PIO only". All other channels and devices show "DMA if available" and Current is "Ultra DMA Mode 5" or "not applicable". I do not fully understand some of this. Should I change that device to DMA and try it?

2. Boot to TI CD. I will do that as soon as I can, and report.

3. Desination drive: Internal CD/DVD. Part of the original computer. When I replaced the drive (See my #3 above), I put everything back the same.

I look forward to your comment about whether I should change the PIO to DMA. And, I will follow your boot suggestion as soon as I can.

John

You told me to boot to TI CD and try the backup from there. It booted fairly quickly, but it would not let me backup. "Error E000101F4 .... (cannot handle) Windows Dynamic Disks, E-Z Drives, etc." Then it will not proceed. I have no idea what those are. I have just normal regular drives.

Therefore, I cannot follow your second instruction.

John

Is the third primary device the DVD drive? Sometimes Windows will "get stuck" on a slow (PIO) speed. Other times, it will revert due to communication errors. Verify that the IDE cable is good (maybe even replace it). Verify the connections are all good (disconnect and reconnect -- this includes the IDE connector on the board).

You can also try removing (uninstalling) the IDE controller for the DVD drive in Device Manager and rebooting. This forces Windows to reinstall it, which will sometimes fix the problem. In most cases of this that I've seen, you won't be able to select DMA access or selecting it won't help because Windows has it messed up. Uninstalling and reinstalling usually helps. Most DVD drives are at least DMA 2.

Can you post a screenshot of what Disk Management shows for your drives? It may help to see it.

Thank you for your continued help.

DVD drive the third primary device? I have two hard drives, and they are each connected directly to the main board, which I presume means they are first and second primary devices. That leaves the third for the DVD.

Connections and cables: I long ago learned about reconnecting everything, and I had done that three times before my second message on the forum. When I installed the new drive, I kept everything else the same.

However, I subsequently installed a new cable. None of these actions helped.

IDE controller: I uninstalled the controller for the third device, the DVD drive, set to PIO. Windows reinstalled it to DMA mode 2. After Windows reinstalled, the first backup to the DVD ran at proper speed. Then the controller switched to PIO, and everything else ran very slowly.

I noticed that Nero has a "DMA Manager" which might make one think they can turn DMA on. The instruction said to reboot after marking it for DMA. Following reboot, the device was still PIO.

You asked for a screen shot of /Disk Management/. Here it is in a pdf. The drive in question is the last one on the list.

It seems to me that the DMA - PIO issue is relevant. Is "what makes it change from DMA to PIO?" a
proper question?

John

As far as I know, driver problems or communication errors are the usual cause. In your case, Windows is dropping the speed quickly.

If the DVD drive is connected directly to the board, have you verified it's correctly jumpered as a Single/Master drive? If it's connected to one of the other cables, is it jumpered as a Slave? Note that some drives work better in one mode than the other.

Do you have another IDE DVD drive you can try? This would help determine if the problem is the drive or the board/drivers.

Regarding TI not supporting the drives, do you get the same error if you boot TI with just one of the drives connected?

Thank you for your continued help. I am eager to see whether the information and screen shot I sent you yesterday are helpful.

I composed the following before receiving your last message. At the end, I will respond to your message.

This morning, I started by uninstalling the IDE controller for the DVD drive and rebooting. That was about three hours ago. During this three hours, all programs using the drive have run at the usual speed, and sound is not distorted. I tried some video too -- no distortion.

Since yesterday, I have had some time to think through all that has happened, and all that you have led me to do. My thoughts are running along these lines. Am I correct in thinking this way? Or am I jumping too fast?

1. The sudden slowing of the DVD drive is because the transfer mode changed from Ultra DMA 2 to PIO. (Remember, I was not tracking DMA until you told me to. However, I find it easy to guess that is what happened back on July 7 to 8, and a few times since then.)

2. Uninstalling the IDE controller for the DVD drive forces Windows to reinstall it with the DMA mode, and that makes things fast again, and without distortion. When I replaced the DVD drive, the significance was not the new drive, but the reinstallation with the DMA mode.

3. Seemingly at any moment, Windows can switch that controller to PIO, and I will be back to slowness and distortions.

4. Therefore, we want to know, what causes the change from DMA to PIO?

Assuming #4 is the right question to ask, let me talk a little more about that. I have a firewall, and on access antivirus and spyware, and I have had these for years. Beyond that, no background scanning or such. I know when I am on the internet. In a normal work session, I often have several things going, and I know what they are.

I have no idea at all about what causes the change from DMA to PIO.

To answer that question, what should I be looking for? Is there any test I can run, to perhaps cause the problem while I am watching?

Or, if this is the wrong question to ask, what should I be asking?

I look forward to your further response. Thank you very much.

John

By the way, at this moment, the DVD drive is still in DMA mode, but it has been idle for about fifteen minutes. I have the window for the DVD channel on the screen I can watch it. I do not know what its refresh rate is, so I close the widow and reopen it from time to time.

------
Now, your message:

I appreciate your stating things carefully. I can understand the concepts, but I do not always know the detail, or what to look for.

The DVD drive is jumpered as a single or master drive. As best I can tell, there are no slaves in my system. You wrote, "Some drives work better in one mode than the other." Are you suggesting I change the jumper to slave to test it? As I recall, the jumper has three positions. Is it safe to try the others?

You asked, "Do you have another ... drive you can try?" Remember, I replaced the drive once. And, that after replacing the drive, I had five ours of good behavior from the new drive. I was not watching the transfer mode at that time, but it is easy for me now to think that the mode was DMA, then suddenly changed to PIO. Saying that another way, I have had good behavior and bad behavior from both drives. I am thinking that the difference is in the transfer mode, not the drive. Or do I miss something there?

Regarding TI not supporting the drives, you ask, "do you get the same error if you boot TI with just one of the drives connected?" One of which drives? One of the hard drives? I would be scared to disconnect those, but then if I am booting from the CD, ... .

Though you did suggest a few things, I want some additional information -- or confirmation that it is okay to do it! -- before I try them. Meantime, I am watching closely to see if I can discover what is happening when the mode changes to PIO.

John

The DVD drive needs to be jumpered correctly for how it's connected. If the drive is single/master, it must be jumpered that way. What I meant was that some drives perform slowly when connected as slaves to another drive. For example, a hard drive may perform more slowly connected as a slave to a DVD drive than as the master with the DVD drive as the slave.

You could try connecting the DVD drive as a slave to one of the hard drives and see if it makes a difference. It may just be something with that third port. If you do this, make sure the hard drive is jumpered correctly for master. Some have a single/master setting and some have a different setting for single and master w/slave.

---

Look in the Windows Event Log for any errors around the time you notice the drop in speed. You could also browse it for errors and see if any pertain to the IDE controller or DVD drive.

---

I was suggesting you disconnect one of the hard drives and then booting the TI CD. It's just to see if one of the drives is causing the problem or if it's something else. Both are single/master drives so you shouldn't need to change any jumpers -- just disconnect the drive. Make sure to reconnect both before booting into Windows.

Thank you Mudcrab, for your help getting my computer up to speed again. The reason I waited a while before adding this message is that I wanted to see if the problem was really solved. I reckon it is.

For the sake of other readers, let me summarize what I did. The apparent problem is well described above. I am sure if you had been here at my computer, you would have identified the problem quickly. But, because when you told me things to do, you had to wait for me to do them and to report back, it took time. Thank you for your patience.

What I found was that the Transfer Mode for the DVD drive had switched from DMA (the fast mode) to PIO (a very slow mode). You told me how to find out what the mode was, and how to switch it back to DMA; other readers can see your instructions several messages back. The procedure is not hard to do, but too bad I had to do it.

Unfortunately, though that procedure got me back to DMA mode, it fell into PIO again. Why? You commented that transfer errors can cause the switch, and that I should look in the event long. It fell into PIO five times, so far. The first two times were too far back. I do keep a log of what happens on my computer, but one does not always notice the details that later become important.

I just said that the first two times falling into PIO were too far back in time. The third time, I had carelessly put the disk into the drive upside down, and kept telling the program to use it. Finally I discovered my error, and the event log showed a series of program errors. By then the computer had switched to PIO.

The fourth and fifth times I am sure were for this reason: I had two disks that had been scratched. The scratches caused multiple read or write errors. These were well displayed in the event log, and the computer switched to PIO.

Thank you again. May this help others who have the same problem.

John