ATI 2010: Image Backup on a Toshiba with Pre-Installed Win7

Usually you would backup the entire drive - check mark on Disk 1. But a question ... if the laptop came pre-installed with Win 7, (per your subject title) why did you have to install it again?

Hi DwnNDrty,

Well, the pre-installed enviroment in the laptop is not a complete installation of the OS.

The first time you turn on the machine you make the actual complete OS installation.

The Toshiba laptops nowdays don't ship with a Win7 installation DVD. It's all on the HDD.

Now, when I use the Win7 Image backup built-in Utility it automatically places a checkmark on partition C and the System Partition-the small hidden partition-, as it detects that these two are the necessary partitions for the system to operate.

Are you sure I have to backup the whole drive?

Thanks alot.

FB

If you want to be able to restore your drive at some time including the W7 install files and be able to immediately boot, then yes you need to image the complete disk.

I suggest, you make one image of the complete disk, which is then not touched.

After that make another image that only covers the partitions you want and use this archive for increments/differentials as you wish.

Hi Bodgy,

Thanks for your reply.

Let me get that straight. Up to now, I have taken an image only of partition C and the System partition-the small hidden one.

So if anything was to go wrong, and I was to restore this image, partition D would remain untouched, and only C and the System partitions would be restored. Therefore my HDD would keep its current architecture, with restored C and System partitions, while D would still be there as it stands now. Correct?

Whats the reason of taking an image of the entire drive then? I can't understand it.

Unless, by restoring the image of C and System partitions would in anyway harm partiton D. Then it would make sense in taking an image of the whole drive.

Please help me get the picture.

Thanks a lot in advance. I appreciate it.

FB.

Until you do a restore you cannot be sure that a Backup will recover correctly. Having a backup of the entire Disk is like extra insurance and in case you want to put everything back as it came from the factory.

BTW, even though you didn't get an installation DVD, every notebook maker usually gives you a way to make those DVDs. Find out where it is on the Toshiba and make them - for extra insurance.

Frank,
RE: posting #4
If your only restores is going to be of one partition or the other, then a single partition backup/restore will suffice.

However, if your hard drive fails or you want to move to a larger drive, then one easy solution is to perform a restore the full disk backup since it will include the mbr plus the disk ID.

Yes, it is possible to restore only the C partition (if its has the boot files inside) to a new blank disk but that is not restoring the whole disk.

Having a full disk backup just gives you the best chances for a recovery (new disk) with the fewest difficulties.

More info in my signature index below in item #7. Having a disk option backup is the foundation of my backup guides. It allows you to restore single or multiple partitions.

http://forum.acronis.com/sites/default/files/forum/2010/01/7523/backup_…

http://forum.acronis.com/sites/default/files/forum/2010/01/7523/restore…

Hi GroverH,
First of all thank you very much for your reply. I do appreciate it.

I see what you mean. I have followed your advice, and ImagedBackup the whole drive. I have also read through your other thread, which is not only extremely useful but obviously have taken a lot of efforts to construct. Congratulations for that very useful thread. Have downloaded the pdf files you provided for back and recovery.

Now, I have a couple of questions I would like to ask your opinion about:

1. When restoring using either the Full Disc Option or choosing just a single partition, say in my case partition C: and the System partition (I believe it's the famous WinRE), do I have to choose (tick) the MBR and Track0 box as well? Well, I think that if one chooses the Full Disc Restoration the MBR and Track0 box are checked by default. In any case, should this option be included in either case?

2.Having read also your post (at wilders security forums) about the correct prioritization of the partitions during restoration with ATI, in comparison with Windows Disc management, I have two issues:

a) Is this procedure to be followed only when restoring to a new disc? Or is it necessary to follow this procedure, during restoration in an already existing drive, that for some reason will not boot/or just want to restore because we want to roll back due to some problem?

b) I couldn't find anywhere in your instructions, after establishing which the correct order is in the Windows Disc Management, and contrasting this with ATI's GUI information, how are we supposed to change the partition order (partitions that are to restored) in the ATI itself, assuming that the partitions are not in the correct restoration order?

c)Does the procedure you're suggesting, for checking whether ATI displays the correct information, still stands for Windows 7? Asking that, because your example indicates Win2000/Nt etc..

Allow me to thank you in advance for your help. Once again well done on your magnificent full of information thread.

Thanks.

FB.

Frank,
Thank for the nice words and thank you for spending time looking at my reference material. Responding to your questions in post #7.

1. Restoration of a full disk backup:
a. Most of your restores will be the single system partition and there is no need to restore the recovery or diagnostic or Track 0/MBR.
b. If you are also having trouble booting, then you might need to include the Track0/MBR--but there is no harm done if you include it anyway.
c. There is no harm done if you restore/overlay your existing disk with the entire full disk which includes all partitions but usually you are restoring only the single system partition.
2a. User control over placement of the partitions is usually only necessary when restoring to a new blank drive or a new used drive. If restoring to your existing working drive, the partitions have already been created and the restoring of each partition is simply to overlay what already has been created in the same physical sequence that exists. Restoring a full disk backup in its entirety removes the need for these user adjustments but sometimes this selection is not possible and single partitions must be sized and restored in a user controlled sequence.

2b. As far as we know, the Windows Disk Management display should be the correct partition order and if TrueImage does not display the same order, then click on the Column icon (upper right-"What to Recover screen" and change the sort order to what is illustrated below. The objective is to make TrueImage display the same sequence as Windows Disk Management.

2c. I am not yet familiar with Windows 7 but I see no reason why it should not also apply. True Image did the backup. It know what sequence the partitions are arranged. The problem is that sometimes, the TrueImage default does not always display the information correctly which leaves the user the responsibility of changing the TI display sequence until the correct partition sequence is displayed. The objective is to make TrueImage display the same sequence as Windows Disk Management.

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Frank:

To add a further comment to your item 1:

On Windows 7, the small 100 MB partition contains the files needed to boot Windows (the file bootmgr and the directory \Boot). They are installed to a separate partition in case you ever encrypt your disk with BitLocker because the boot process needs to start from an unencrypted partition.

WinRE, the Windows Recovery Environment, is not installed to this partition (it wouldn't fit; WinRE is about 163 MB). Instead, it's installed in the main C: partition in the hidden folder \Recovery.

Hi GroverH & KOLO,

Thanks both very much for your contributions and help. I do appreciate it.
=========================================================
@ GroverH:

All fine and clear except 2b. I can see from your image here and also from your explanation in your other thread, that I can adjust the columns. Fine. But the purpose here to "mirror image" the Windows Disc Management (WDM) view with ATI's GUI right?

So if WDM displays for example the sequence C--D--MBR, and ATI displays sequence D--C--MBR, then in the ATI GUI I have to adjust the rows in order to mirror view the WDM's sequence, and not the columns as you portay. This is what I'm asking. How can I bring the C partition (in my example here), from 2nd choice to being the first? It's my understanding that to do that, I would have to adjust the whole "C-Row" somehow, and bring it to the top. How can I do that?

I'm sorry if there is something I'm missing, but I don't get that. Please explain.

-Now in the other thread at #7 a, there are two pdf, with very useful information. On the Recovery related pdf, and on page10, top paragraph you mention that, and I quote " This is discussed in the Note section 1 & 2 discussed on page 3 and in more detail with the Partition Restore with
Resize Guide."

I cannot find the Partition Restore with Resize Guide anywhere on your thread. Please provide info.

Thanks very much for all your help.
========================================================
@KOLO:

My small hidden System partition is of 400MB cut size (capacity), and has a used space of around 200MB (Well ATI actually measures it as 213MB, while Windows Recovery GUI measures it, if I remember correctly, around 180MB).

In any case, I'm rather sure that its's the WinRE hidden in there. I say rather, because I have spend many time and questions in the Toshiba Forums asking about that, and the architecture of the disc in general.

I have to admit, that in the Toshiba forums, both the European and the US, people there are not quite sure what the hell this is anyway. To be honest, although the architecture of my disc-read my first post-, is now quite common for Tosh laptops, still there is a high degree of ignorance about the related architecture. Or if there is no ignorance, then certainly, someone does want to share the knowledge with the rest of us.
I would like to believe that it's the first one. BTW, I'm on Satellite A500.

Anyway, if you have any info for this matter, I would very much appreciate if you would share it with me.

Thanks for your help.
=================================================================================

FB

Frank:

It sounds like Toshiba has done things differently from the Windows 7 installer by moving the recovery environment to the boot partition. I agree with the way that they have set this up - in fact, I did the same thing (moved WinRE to the boot partition) because I didn't like the way that Microsoft sets this up on a default Windows 7 installation. I don't think that having WinRE on the Windows partition is a good idea because if anything happens to the partition then the recovery environment might be damaged also.

The size sounds correct. Here's what's on my boot partition (I'm leaving out Grub4Dos and several bootable ISO files that I added to the boot partition; that's another story):

WinRE: 163 MB
\Boot: 14 MB
bootmgr: 0.37 MB
Total: 177 MB

With a little extra for NTFS overhead, your 200 MB figure sounds correct.

Hi KOLO,
Thanks alot for your reply.

I would appreciate your help in the following rather strange thing, I found out today about this specific Hidden WinRE Partition:

Checking my Windows 7, Disc Management today, I have found that the -hidden- recovery Partition shows as being empty.
(Empty means that it shows a capacity of 400MB, but no used space.)

Is this normal?

Since buying my Satellite A500 a month ago, haven't modified anything that could cause the recovery partition to empty/delete itself.

Only thing I did was to create the Recovery discs, first day. That operation was successful.

Funny thing is that when I use the Wndows Backup built-in utility to Image backup my system, there I can see that the System-this hidden- partition shows as being 213.6 MB. Which is the same as that shown on ATI's GUI as well (I correct the above made statement about the 180MB shown on Windows Image Backup GUI--it's actually 213.6MB)

So I have ATI & Windows Image Backup showing a used space of 213.6MB.

The question is why it does not show in Disc Management?

Also, when I take an image of this partition and mount it, using ATI Mount Operation, in order to view it, it also shows up empty.

Is anyone else having the same issue? Is this normal, or my recovery partition has been deleted of its contents?

Thanks alot in advance.

I would appreciate your answer.

FB.

Frank:

I doubt that your partition's contents have been deleted since Windows boots from this partition. And I assume that it does boot. To confirm that the boot files are in the 400 MB partition could you post the following:

1. Right-click on cmd.exe and choose Run as administrator
2. Enter the following command but substitute your actual user name in place of username:

bcdedit /enum all > C:\Users\username\Desktop\bcd.txt

3. This will create a text file with the contents of your Boot Configuration Database (BCD) on your desktop. Attach the file to your next post. It should resemble the attached file.

Meanwhile, I will post some pictures that may help to answer your questions.

Frank wrote:

I cannot find the Partition Restore with Resize Guide anywhere on your thread. Please provide info.

It is item 7B inside the index but is listed slightly differently.

Item b: additional explanation on the sorting columns option.
In the columns heading, the sequence number of the items controls how the columns are arranged left to right. This is purely cosmetics.
How the data appears under each column heading is controlled by clicking on the column header. The Track0/MBR row can be either top or bottom--it does not matter since it has its own unique placement.
Look again at the attachment in post #8. As displayed in the example, what you are wanting is that the first partition is listed as first partition row. If it is not, then toggle the header to move the visual display so the display shows the partition 1 as being before partition 2.
The partition 1 should also include the starting (lowest sector number) sector number as shown in the attachment. Practice toggling the header columns and lateral placement of column. This will help you to understand what is happening. All you are changing is how you view the information.

Starting with version 2009, TrueImage is forcing more partition restore options to be done singly and the actions cannot be stacked and all done at one pass. You will know when you are in this type situation if you are not given the opportunity to select the intended partition and perform modifications. In other words, Under the "Required Steps" options, some partitions may not be listed and cannot be changed in that particular pass. This means you may have to restore say Partition 1 and then click proceed; and when completed, restore partition 2 and click proceed and when completed, then restore MBR and disk id and click final proceed. Restoring some hardware brands is a breeze while others are more time consuming. Since I am not in the repair business and not exposed to the different brands, my experience is only what i obtain from my own testing of my own personal equipment.

The summary screen lists the anticipated modifications that will begin when the Proceed option is activated. This is another reason for looking at the summary screen very carefully to make sure that all of your chosen options appear in the summary as awaiting completion once you trigger the proceed.

Experience can be gained by simulating your intended actions. Once, you have your practice down pat, then test it with a real restore to a test drive. You don't know whether it will do what you want until you try it for real.

Frank:

Here is what Disk Management shows on my PC:

This picture requires some explanation since I have a somewhat unorthodox layout:
1. The boot partition does show as having 40% free space, but I have it as a standard NTFS partition (Type 07h). Toshiba may have set yours up as a Windows RE hidden partition (Type 027h). Normally Disk Management will only show details for FAT and NTFS partition types.
2. The partition that the PC boots from will be marked as "Active" in the Status column.
3. The three partitions without details (8, 2, 4 GB size) are Linux partitions. Note that Disk Management does not show any details for these partitions. Also, they are Logical partitions, despite what Disk Management shows. This is a bug in Disk Management console - if the first logical partition is not in a format that Windows understands then it may misinterpret the details. In this case the extended partition container (green box outline) should start on the 8 GB partition and end at the end of the disk. Instead it surrounds the last logical partition only, which is NTFS.
4. Note that Disk Management does correctly display the partitions in the order in which they appear on the disk from first to last.

To answer your questions - I suspect that your boot partition is marked as type 027h, so that may explain why Disk Management console shows it as empty.

I tried mounting the boot partition from one of my images and it did mount and display correctly. There may be a couple of reasons why yours will not mount. First, TI will not mount partitions that are in formats that it does not understand. Perhaps it thinks that 027h is one of those, even though it is really an NTFS partition. As an example, I can't mount any of the ext3 formatted Linux partitions from my image. Second, I'm using a different version of True Image (Version 10) and you're probably using Version 2010.

Can you explore the image? Double-click on your image file and drill down through the file structure to see if you can see the contents of your boot partition.

@GroverH:

OK my friend. Got it now. You're right anyway. One has to do the test runs before an actual one. I will try a couple of these soon hopefully.

Thank you very much for all your help. Keep up your excellent work.
====================================================

@KOLO:

Please refer to attached image from Disc Management. As you can see my Boot Partition is the small hidden one, indicated by the "Active" characterization in the Status column.

At the same time is characterized as being a recovery partition as well. Partition C, the main partition where Windows 7 exist, and partition D, where the all of the Recovery Files have been created by Toshiba Recovery Manager when first turn on the laptop and finalized the installation of the Pre-Installed Win7 x64.

As you can see, there is no characterization as far as the File System Column is concerned in the Hidden Partition. I don't now if the characterization given is a "027h", and for this reason shows up as being empty.

The question is has it deleted somehow the WinRE files ? Why the heck shows up empty? Is there a way to find out whether it actually still holds the files in?

I did not try to double click the image. Only tried to mount it. From the two Partitions inside the Image (had taken only C and System partitions at first), only C can be mounted with success. For the System partition I get a message from Windows that Drive H (this is what its called when mounted) has not been mounted correctly and provides me with an option screen to follow corrective action should I wish so. Never did though.

Also as in your picture, please notice the difference between the top screen and the bottom graphical representation of the disc.
Which one is the correct?

I would like to thank you very much for all your help. I truly appreciate.

I hope we can get this cleared up.

Thanks again.

FB.

PS. If running the command line would be of any further help please let me now. I was just not sure if by running it, would make things worst.

Frank:

Your screen shot does not list a recognized Windows file system type in the "File System" column, so that explains why Disk Management cannot calculate a value for Free Space or % Free - it simply gives the total size of the partition instead. If you look at my posted Disk Management screen shot you can also see this behavior for the Linux partitions. So that explains what you see in Disk Management.

This also explains why Acronis True Image cannot mount this partition - it can only mount FAT and NTFS partitions. Toshiba must have used a different file system for the boot partition. If you really want to find out what type of file system is in use then download a copy of Symantec's Partition Table Editor and have a look. Unzip the file to your desktop, right-click on it and choose "Run as administrator". The program will display a graphic that shows the contents of your partition table. The file system of each partition will be listed in the Type column. Post a copy of the screen shot here.

There are several ways to confirm that the WinRE files still exist in the boot partition:

1. Boot your PC from a Live Linux CD (like Knoppix, for example) and browse the contents of the partition. You should be able to see all of the files in the partition when booted to Linux.
2. Browse the contents of your TI image by double-clicking on it in Windows 7. This operation is safe; it is a read-only operation that will not allow you to modify the contents of the image.
3. Try booting into WinRE. Reboot your PC and just before you see the "Starting Windows" screen, repeatedly tap the F8 key. Timing is very critical here so you may have to try this a few times until you catch it right before Windows starts to boot. If you're successful you will see the Boot Manager screen in black and white. The first choice on the menu should be "Repair your computer". Choose this and you will boot into the Windows Recovery Environment where you will see a menu of repair options. If successful, just exit and return to Windows. You have just proven that your WinRE files are still intact if this works.

*Edit* I forgot to answer your other question. The order of partitions is correct in the graphic image on the bottom. The top portion of the window lists the partitions and is sorted by the first column (Volume). You can click on the header of any column to sort by that column. But if you're trying to figure out the order as they are laid out on the disk, the graphic is correct.

Hi dear one ,

I have "Dell inspiron 15 R , Windows 7 preinstalled" . I have created the system image in to my hard disk .

I want to make it bootable DVD format , which will be easy for me to reinstall another time.

How it is done , plz help me out .

Thanks in advance.

Hi Aisurya,

How big is the image you have created?

You say you have created a system image, have you stored this on another partition or hard drive, did you make it using the One-Click-Backup shortcut?

Depending on how you made the system image, you may or may not have the Dell recovery partition and the Windows 7 reserved partition included, you will certainly need the W7 reserved partition as it contains the booting files.

If your image is larger than that which fits on a DVD you will need more than one DVD, more than 3 DVD's become annoying when you wish to restore due to all the DVD swapping that will be required.

If you have made a complete disk image then (which you may have) directly to a DVD(s) then there should have been an option to 'Place Acronis True Image Home' onto the DVD at the same time and or the One-Click-Restore.

Before you do anything like that though, make a normal Rescue CD using the Acronis Media Builder and make sure that it can boot your computer with no problems.

Hi Colin B ,

Thanks for you reply.

Yes i created the image of both "OS" and "RECOVERY" partition , and kept in my hard disk itself.

But Is there any way to create a new windows 7 installation DVD from my preinstalled windows 7.

Thanks in advance..