Try&Decide corrupts Data partially

Today i did some investigation, what happens:

I made a Copy of my Firefox-profile directory before starting try&decide.

After "discarding" all changes when stopping Try&decide (and certainly rebooting) I did a Winmerge - compare of all Files / Folders between the current Firefox-profile and the copy, I created before (which should be Identically, because i "discarded" all Try&Decide changes).

Result: 10 files in the directory are different. On further inverstigation, I discovered, that all affected files have same size as "before", but are completely filled with "NUL"-Bytes (before, they contained for example XML-Text).

Hints:
a.) This is NOT a Firefox-Bug (Firefox was not active before starting Try&Decide and after "discarding changes"
b.) There are many other programs / data affected. For example sometimes Virusscanner cannot start due to corrupted services after "discarding changes"
c.) The System HDD has no errors (there are never problems while working regularly; chkdsk /F never reports Problems). Normal "Backup" and "Recovery" with ATIH works fine.
d.) I checked different Storage locations for the Try&Decide data in the "Try&Decide-start-dialog" (systemdrive C, Other pyhsical drive D, asz): Same result in all cases.
e.) On the same computer all previous versions "Try&Decide" - feature worked without any problems (-> will say: this can't be a problem of my PC).

Please let me know, if I can help finding the problem with further investigations.

Someone else with similar problems ? Except http://forum.acronis.com/node/23663 who might have same Issue.

Any suggestions, how to fix the issue ?

I recall someone else has mentioned this but I'm not sure if this was during the beta testing or in the release version.

I don't know of an answer. I suggest raising a support case with Acronis.

Hello all,

Thank you for taking time to contact us. 

mastercb,

Could you please perform the following test?

1) Please run the Check disk utility on your C: drive:

 - Go to the Command Prompt (Start -> Run -> cmd)

We are awaiting for your response.

Thank you.

Hello Oleg,

I sent you the information, you requested, via PM, as I do not know, if the appended files could affect privacy, when posted in the public forum part.

Edit: Seems another user has exactly the same issue: http://forum.acronis.com/forum/26268

Hello Mastercb,

Thank you for your assistance!

I have checked current issue state: currently it's been investigated by the Development team. Unfortunately we do not have any time frames regarding when any update will be available, but rest assured as soon as we get any news from their side, we will immediately inform you.

As it's important for us to have all the information stored in one place, so let's consider this thread to be the main one.

Let us know if you have any questions or concerns, we will be glad to help.

Thank you.

Hello yana,

thanks for your reply. It's good to hear, that the issue is under investigation.

As I concluded in the "other" thread (created by another affected user), it seems to be important for you to know, that both affected users have a SSD of following type (Crucial M4-CT128M4SSD2 with current firmware 0009) as system disk installed.

This is currently a very popular and widely spreaded model and works very well (without any windows-errors reported (chkdsk as well as S.M.A.R.T . Attributes report "perfect" results).

Hint: The issue occurs also, when in the "T&D - start-window another physical (Non-SSD) harddisk is selected as "Storage for virtual changes"

Try and Decide did not start corrupting data until I switched from a spinning hard drive to SSD. The Crucial M4 CT128M4SSD2 128GB SSD has 0009 firmware, the latest.

Acronis is backing up disk images correctly with the OS on the SSD and the backup image on a spinning hard drive.

Hello Oleg, Yana,

as the first Update (6131) is released now, I hope, that the ticket no. ATIHIIOXII-7132 is now under inverstigation to be fixed in the nearest build. Please remember, that many of your customers have SSD's and that the issue is very dangerous. Why is the issue not documented in the "known errors"-section of the current release notes ?
Can you now figure out, when the next date is for fixing the issue ? (Please remember: In the past, I used frequently the TnD feature. Now, the feature is absolutely unusable !

Mastercb,

Are you saying the problem still exists in build 6131?

I use a Crucial C300 which works OK with 2012.

Hi Colin B,

the mentioned problem only refers to data corruption when using Try&Decide (NOT with backup/restore). Oleg confirmed, the issue, but said, that it cannot be fixed in the upcoming (now: released B6131) build.

It seems to be proof, that at least the Crucial M4 SSD's are affected from this issue. I would be carefully when using TnD with other SSD's as I do not know, if they are affected, too or not !

I just updated to version 6131 and try and decide has NOT been fixed for those of us with Crucial M4 CT128M4SSD2 SSD. All the previous reported issues still remain.

Also, Acronis was NOT able to restore from a previous disk image within windows once try and decide had ran; and even though try and decide was no longer running and the system had rebooted, it was necessary to boot from acronis rescue media to restore an earlier disk image.

This happens on most of these disk shadowing programs because of the TRIM feature (on all SSDs that use TRIM). I discovered the same with Shadow Defender last year and that will never be fixed. The only one I know that works for sure is Deep Freeze.

A very interesting comment from Sartre !

@Oleg, Yana and all the others from Acronis: Has this been considered to be the root cause ?

If YES: Please WARN all users with SSD from using TnD, because ALL current SSD support TRIM.

This means, that ALL users with SSD and WINDOWS7 would be affected corrupting their system with TnD ! (?)

Hello all,

Thank you for your reports, I've added the information to our database.

masterb,

I have requested additional information from you via PMs.

Thank you.

Hi all,
I don't want to go out of the argument, but I have also a serious problem with Try&Decide.
Few days ago I've bought True Image 2012 Home (B6131), I've tried it and the functions of creating images, recovery, start-up disk, etc. seem to work well.
Today I've tested T&D and it was impossible to make it start (I have True Image installed on 3 computers and it was the same result for all), every time I receive the message (translated from French):
"Error at the start-up"
All these 3 computers are under XP Pro SP2 and SP3.
The main disks have at least 19 Go free.
I really would like to know if this issue has been already detected and, if yes, if there is already any release or patch to correct what I think cannot be a computer problem, because I have the same message from all my computers.
Sorry if my English is not the best, but I hope I could well describe the situation.
Thanks
Gourghy

Gourghy,

Does this happen just after you log on, or when you try to start T&D?

Check that the service for T&D is enabled and started in Windows. In services it is the Acronis Non Stop Backup Service you need to check.

Check that your firewall isn't stopping the program starting.

You could also try a repair install of 2012.

Hi Colin B
thanks for your answer.
The "think" happens when I try to start T&D, for all the three computers.
After the first error message, every time I start the computer, just after I put the system password, a message tell me that (always translated from French): "Start-up of Acronis charger…", but when I check if T&D is enabled the answer is negative, but I don' know if this message is something from T&D or something else.
I verified the service and it's enabled and it starts automatically.
One of the computers doesn't have Internet connexion and so it doesn't have firewall (and antivirus).
Do you think it's possible that three different installations give the same result for computer issues? Really I don't know.
The three computers have HDD S-ATA, XP Pro SP3 (one is SP2) and MS .NET Framework 3.5.
I'm in contact with the Acronis Support service too and I hope that with the experience of other users in the forum we can arrive to understand what's happening.
Gourghy

 Deleted in accordance with the Terms of use. 

This is Crucial support.
If Acronis ASKS, they might send Crucial M4 CT128M4SSD2 to test for free.

http://www.crucial.com/contact

Toll-free for US and Canada
800-336-8915

Phone
1-208-363-5790

Hours (MST):
Monday - Friday: 7am - 6pm
Saturday: 8am - 2 pm (chat only)

This sounds great !

@reio98387: ARE you member of Crucial ? Or how do you know this

@Oleg, Yana: This seems to be the solution, to get (possibly) YOUR customers satisfied (as well as your financial department ;-)

AGAIN REMEMBER: THE Crucial M4 (aka Micron C400) is a very widely spread SSD. Please do not disappoint all these of YOUR customers with a non-working and PC destroying T&D feature.....

Why the focus on Crucial SSDs? This happens to all brands because of the TRIM feature. All of these disk shadowing programs had corruption problems at some point with SSDs. Returnil still recommends not to run Intel's trim tool when in virtualized mode.

 Hello all,

The appropriate device will be ordered at the beginning of the next year, when a group of our developers will take care of the issues related to TnD.

Thank you.

Hi Acronis-team,

is the issue ATIHIIOXII-7132 in progress to be investigated currently ?

I am running a 1TB SATA Seagate drive partioned into C:, D:, E:. If I switch TnD to E: and make changes on E: and reboot. The changes are gone. However, if I switch to C: as target and Location C:. Changes are not discarded even thou I select Reboot and Discard changes. Anyone heard anything on this? Thank you.

Do you mean you are selecting the same disk you protect as the temporary storage?

Yes that is correct. I even upgraded to the version release on dec.27, 2011 version 6154. Issue still continues.

You should use another disk as temporary storage, not the same disk you protect. ATI diverts all operations on the protected disk to a buffer in the temporary storage. It defeats the system is the temporary storage is on the protected disk. In fact, it should be on another disk altogether (another partition on the same disk is still risky).
Finally, do a system backup before you start T&D. That way if T&D fails to meet your expectations you can at least go back to something you trust.

That does not even make sense from a user usability stand point. I understand the technical logic and I will try that next but in ATI 2010 it did work to use TnD on the same drive for example the C: drive. I upgraded from ATI 2010 to 2012 thinking it would be a better product. Dispite many negative reviews stating that ATI 2012 flopped I purchased it. Most users only have one partition with a C: drive so using another drive or partition is not an option for most users. When configuring the product to use the same source and target no warnings are displayed that this might be an issue for Try and Decide. The only warning is about defrag and check disk.

Solarstar,

The product is probably designed to handle the case where storage is on the disk to protect. When I try T&D I always use another disk. That said, I never really use it. I just prefer doing a backup before launching T&D.

So, you don't have a USB disk for your backups? Are you storing your backups on a partition on the same disk as the partition where your OS and apps are?

There's a big difference between backing up a partition on the same physical drive and using the same drive to store your TnD temp file. Using the drive being "protected" as your temp storage location doesn't appreciably increase risk, and many virtualization products do the same. The biggest reason to move it to another drive, IMO, would be performance.

@PAt L - We are getting off topic. No and No but backups have nothing to do with this. It is strictly an TnD issue.
@ Sartre - Correct on both items, and thank you for pointing that out. :)

Back to it. Still no resolve. TnD is not functioning and I really used this feature to test software/installs or programs without junking up the OS with all the junk left behind by slacker programers who do not code the uninstall to remove everything such as files and registry settings.

Solarstar,
Since you have another disk to store the temporary information, try that to see if that makes any difference. Since T&D works with other disk, there is a chance and, at a minimum you are not facing some installation or service issue. T&D uses low level drivers and it is possible that you have a conflict with some other driver installed. To identify this you will need Acronis support help.

Thank you Pat L. I set the source drive to C: (have a C:, D: E: on 1 TB drive) and set the temp TnD target to E: it still fails to discard changes. Have a second 1 TB drive drive (Z:) Oddly enough I can not select the entirely different disk as a target for the TnD temp store. Next I am going to remove all traces of Acronis 2012 and Acronis 2012 lus Pack. Do a clean install. If that wonderfulness fails then I will contact tech support. Thank you for the assistance and suggestions. *Update* Did clea uninstall of all Acronis Products and wipes outC:\Program Files\Acronis, deleted Acronis Registry keys under HKLM and HKCU. TnD still does not work and I forgot Acronis Support is not like most companys where is you buy a product you usualy get 1 year support. I purchased a few months ago and my support ended 12-31-2011 and to open a ticket to fix it I have to pay $.9.95. Not cool. Might be time to look for another solution. To bad too. I have been loyal to Acronis but that is fading fast.

Solarstar,
Acronis will reimburse you the PPI if there is a bug in the software. In your case, I'd say there is a smaller chance. I'd bet there is a driver conflict, but I am in no position to place a bet :-)
I never found T&D reliable and have had issue with it with software activation, etc... Most people who test software prefer using a virtual machine. It looks like you know what you are doing, so I guess you'd know this already. SHort of a VM, just doing a system backup using ATI is actually more reliable and flexible (you never really know how T&D will handle reboots, BSODs, etc...)

mastercb wrote:

It seems to be proof, that at least the Crucial M4 SSD's are affected from this issue. I would be carefully when using TnD with other SSD's as I do not know, if they are affected, too or not !

After reio39387 reproted the same issue and has the same SSD (Crucial M4) as me, I thought, the issue would be only with THIS type of SSD.

After I changed my system-disk to a SAMSUNG SSD830 and the issue persists, I would conclude, that ALL systems with SSD's and WINDOWS 7 are affected of this serious T&D problem.

We have been waiting for an update to Try and Decide since last year so that it will work with Crucial M4 CT128M4SSD2. Try and Decide is completely unusable. We were promised an update to Try and Decide several months ago. It also appears not to work with SAMSUNG SSD830

How much longer do we have to wait for an update to Try and Decide, please?

Thanks

 Hello all,

Thank you for your responses.

The issue is already fixed, the fix is implemented for the build we are planning to release. The exact date is the release is unknown, but we expect it soon. 

Thank you.

Pat L wrote:

You should use another disk as temporary storage, not the same disk you protect. ATI diverts all operations on the protected disk to a buffer in the temporary storage. It defeats the system is the temporary storage is on the protected disk. In fact, it should be on another disk altogether (another partition on the same disk is still risky).
Finally, do a system backup before you start T&D. That way if T&D fails to meet your expectations you can at least go back to something you trust.

I have been reading about this issue with great interest. I have successfully used Try and Decide a number of times. I really like it. I have Acronis Backup Home 2012 version 15, build 6154. Operating system is Windows 7 x86. I backup to a G-force 1T eSATA USB 2.0 NTFS external hard drive. Firefox v.11.0 is my default browser.

I have not attempted any changes requiring the use of Firefox yet but this topic concerns me in case I should want to do that. What I have noticed is Try and Decide requires a lot of patience. The process of adding whatever is slow. Then the process of accepting or rejecting the changes is also slow, especially if you need to reboot. I wait and wait and eventually everything goes back to normal. So far I have successfully rejected and accepted about 5 times.

That said, here are my questions: How do you know what disk/partition is being used by Try and Decide? I don't recall seeing an option to select a location for this. Is the default location for the temporary storage someplace other than the "C" drive? If not, how do you change location to a drive that is not part of computer operating system? Since my Try and Decide appears to be working properly for me, if there is an update for build 6154 with a fix for the above mentioned problem, should I download it? [I don't think I would need to.] When a fix is provided, will it be specific to this issue only?

Thanks for you help.

When you start T&D in 2011, you can choose the protected partitions and you can choose the partition to store the virtual changes.
From my experience, T&D is iffy if you encounter a BSOD during the session (for example because of something you installed). IMO, while the concept is powerfull, the reliability is practically the same as Windows Restore (which uses different mechanisms) I also found it is hard to comfortably discard content changes after having used certain applications of a while: I always want to keep content changes (sometimes not related to what I was trying), while removing the app/driver/coded I was trying out. Because of that, I use Windows Restore to get out of of Ooops moments quickly, but always restore an image to be confident I came back to a known state.

I have the same problem with my OCZ Vertex 2 SSD. I use now Acronis True Image Home 2010 / Windows 7 Ultimate x64 with SP1 /
Do you know when they will fix this issue ? I really don't want to give up. Try and Decide is a very good tool.
Thank you.

Does anyone knows ?

Is it really possible, that this issue really is NOT fixed 5 (!!) Months after it was reported first ??

It is fixed just not fixed for end users/customers... I had ATI 2009-2010 and it worked quit well as far as T&D. Now the T&D is worthless in ATI 2012. Time to look for a new imaging software. We keep getting carrots dangled in our faces of inklings of "please wait we are updating the build and it is in Q&A and it will be release ""soon"". I guess I need to reevaluate the meaning or definition of "soon".

Posted Mon, 2012-04-02 05:39

Hello all,

Thank you for your responses.

The issue is already fixed, the fix is implemented for the build we are planning to release. The exact date is the release is unknown, but we expect it soon.

Thank you.

__________________

Oleg Lee

Acronis QA Team

I believe Acronis are trying to get as many fixes to the reported problems into the update as possible and are also trying to avoid the "we've fixed this for X amount of customers and now Y amount have a new problem".

Hopefully the longer they take to test the new build, the more stable it will be, obviously like Microsoft Updates there is no such thing as a perfect update.

There is always a "y" varible that comes up. One must pick the greater of 2 evils and move ahead. Fix something break something fix something break another. Another evil cycle. :(

This has been been fixed for me with the new release. Thank you.

What do you mean ??
Explain please. Thanks a million

Eduard,

If, for example, 100 users report one specific problem with software and the software provider fixes that problem, sometimes because software can be quite complex, the fixing of that problem causes another problem somewhere else so now something has been fixed for X amount of people, and now a completely different group of people whose software was working now have as problem (the Y lot), which now needs fixing.

Think of Microsoft updates that occasionally fix a security problem, but then some people say, "my computer now crashes after applying the update", where as another bunch of users say "hey the security problem is now fixed, my PC works fine now".

What Solarstar is saying, is that sometimes it is better to fix something that is causing a problem as more people will be affected by that than the danger of causing new problems to perhaps a smaller group of people.

Okay, Colin B, i understand now.
I still hope that the next release ( ATI pack, or whatever ) will fix this problem with some SSD´s and Try and Decide option.