Strange cloning problem with a Dell notebook

You could redo the clone in manual mode, so that you can control the size of the partitions. You are right not to resize any of the dell partitions.

Ultimately, you may need to run the utilities mentioned in post #3 of this link

http://forum.acronis.com/forum/9303

I am assuming that you looked at your disk in Windows Disk Management and determined the actual size is 60 with no unallocated extra space.

You could also try using the Add Disk option of TrueImage and delete the existing partitions on the 750

Or, you could try the "clean all" command using the Diskpart utility
http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/52129-disk-clean-clean-all-diskpar…

Thanks for your responses.

I found the useful information in the Wilder Forum posts, on March 5th 2007, that is :

"1. Zero LBA-3 with Roadkil's Sector Editor
2. Use MHDD and run the NHPA command
All fixed in a few minutes."

But, for Zeroing LBA-3, Roadkil's Sector Editor did not work (the sect 3 indicated was not the good one). So I used Acronis DDS11 B2121 (boot CD) to zero the sect 3 (Menu Opération/Modifier le disk).

The MHDD also did not work. So I used Hitachi Feature tool, that worked with my Samsung HD.

So, now all is fine.

A great thank to Brian K and GroverH for their fabulous 2007 posts, and to Dan Goodell (is he a Dell's employee : Good Dell ?).

I have a 500 GB Seagate HD in my Dell Latitude E5500 (Vista). And decided to clone to a Seagate 750 GB LX003 (SSDH).

I first used ATI Home 2011 (full backup of old drive - place new drive in notebook - and restore all partitions - all using a ATI from a bootable USB drive).

It boots up, but, Windows Search service will not start (unable to open metadata unopen). Later NIS 2012 exhibits error that states I must uninstall and reinstall NIS.

I then try ATI Home 2011 clone - same problem afterwards.

After reading numerous posts, I decide to upgrade to Disk Director 11 and use its clone feature. Same problem.

Various posts seem to indicate that the EISA is different on 750 GB drives and ATI/Disk Director are copying over the incorrect EISA. Hence causing the problem.

Some posts say your must use the "as is" option. Other posts say do not use the "as is" option. Tried both ways, same problem.

Other posts indicate only Seagate DiscWizzard can properly clone to a Seagate 750 GB drive. And other posts say DscWizzard will not work.

Have fought this issue on and off for several days. Other than sending the new drives as gifts to people I want to truly annoy - I don't know what to do.

I am a long time user of ATI (once Ghost support was dropped by Symantec).

Vincent,

Stick with the backup and restore approach, but make sure that you:
- backup all partitions on your old disk. You can see all partitions when you right click on the computer icon on your desktop, choose manage, storage, disk management, (Print a screenshot of that console before the restore)
- do the restore from the recovery CD, with your new disk in the target position,
- since you restore to a bigger disk, restore one partition at a time, in the same order they were before,
- leave 1MB before the first partition,
- each partition has a whole number of MB as size (round up if necessary). This doesn't matter for the last partition
- do not change the size of any partition EXCEPT C:\ and any other user created partition
- do not try to change the drive letters,
- mark the right partition active,
- after the last partition, restore the MBR+Track0 AND the disk signature.

If you are using INtel Rapid Storage Technology, make sure you have the latest drivers for your chipset.

I have been traveling for business this last week and will be traveling next week. So, I haven't had a chance to try the above.

A few questions. I have Acronis 2011 running from a USB. Your comments refer to a "recovery CD". I assume that is an Acronis recovery CD. Any reason I need to burn an Acronis recovery CD instead of using Acronis from the USB?

I am running ATI Home 2011 (build 6696). Is that current enough?

I purchased the upgrade to ATI Home 2012. And downloaded about 223 MB only to be told there was a newer version. I then downloaded the newer version. After installing the newer version, Vista had major issues (could no longer start programs from the system tray). I did this twice and then gave up on ATI 2012 and restored the system with ATI Home 2011. That is why I upgraded to Disk Director 11 and its clone function.

Vincent Scott wrote:

A few questions. I have Acronis 2011 running from a USB. Your comments refer to a "recovery CD". I assume that is an Acronis recovery CD. Any reason I need to burn an Acronis recovery CD instead of using Acronis from the USB?

Perfectly fine to use the recovery USB flash drive :-)

I am running ATI Home 2011 (build 6696). Is that current enough?

yes.

I purchased the upgrade to ATI Home 2012. And downloaded about 223 MB only to be told there was a newer version. I then downloaded the newer version. After installing the newer version, Vista had major issues (could no longer start programs from the system tray). I did this twice and then gave up on ATI 2012 and restored the system with ATI Home 2011. That is why I upgraded to Disk Director 11 and its clone function.

Yeah. Lots of users have had issues with installing 2012. It is better done on a system that has been cleaned from previous versions of ATI. Using the cleanup utilities provided by Acronis should suffice. Use the right cleanup tool for the right version. Follow the instruction carefully and do not let the utility reboot the computer. Complete all instruction, then reboot.
Also, it is bettet to install in a clean boot environment: using msconfig, disable all non-microsoft services and all startup items.

Having completed my business trip, I tried your suggestions and still have the same issues. Actually, no matter what I try the results are the same. Windows comes up after the restore. But there are problems. The Windows Search Service knows it has a file problem, deletes the old file, but is unable to create new file.

Same thing with the Windows Encryption Services.

And I am no longer able to perform Windows Updates.

I tried this three times with the Vista Professional system and twice with a Windows 7 Ultimate system. I tried the Windows 7 out of curiosity as I wondered if there was something "magic" about 750 GB and Vista.

At this point in time I expect the only way to upgrade Vista Professional (or Windows Ultimate) from 500 GB to 750 GB is to reinstall Windows from scratch. Something I am not prepared to do.

Incidentally, using Disk Director to clone the new hard drive (while it is on an Apricom USB drive adapter) yields the same results.

I am wondering if I stop all the services, change all automatic services to manual, ATI back up, restore to the new drive and then boot up in Safe Mode might allow the new drive to be installed. After the restart associated with the new drive I could go back and change the services back to automatic and perform one more restart. And maybe if I did this after a full moon...

It should not be this difficult.

Did you try the backup and restore formula?

When you restore, make sure you restore the disk signature and that Windows is validating.

Are you using Intel Rapid Storage Technology? If yes, make sure you install the latest version.

Are you moving to a different disk type like Advanced Format?

Yes, I tried the backup and restore formula. Incidentally, the smallest partition (i.e. simple volume) that Vista will allocate is 8 MB. Still a "basic volume".

Later I saw that roughly half of the initial partition was being used. On another attempt I tried making a 12 GB initial partition (thinking maybe something was going on and the initial partition needed to be larger).

Yes, I restored C: system next to last (and let it expand to occupy the remaining space on the hard drive).

I restored the MBR and track 0 last (instructing it to restore the disk signature).

I do not recall an option "Windows is validating".

The third time (Vista) I only restored the C: drive and the MBR/track 0 (wondering if the Dell stuff out there was causing problems.

In the instance of the W7 system, it is HP and does not have the "Dell stuff".

Based upon my experience, I cannot replace my current 500 GB drive (Seagate ST9500420AS) with a new 500 GB hard drive (Seagate ST9500423AS).

Using ATIH 2012, I did a full backup of my Dell Latititude E5500 (running Vista Business), swapped out the old 500 GB hard drive, installed the new 500 GB hard drive and did a full restore.

It boots up, but, there are a number of things that are not working. Windows Update Service will not allow an update. Windows Search Service will not run, cryptographic service reports error after error.

I found this by accident. Previously I had purchased two new Seagate 750 GB SSD hybrid drives. With the plan to upgrade two Dell Latitude E5500 notebooks (both running Vista Business).

In the initial upgrade attempt I simply performed full backups with ACTIH 2011, swapped drives and then restored. The problems were as described above (i.e. Windows Update Service would not allow an update, Windows Search Service would not run, cryptographic service reported error after error).

I purchased an upgrade to ACTHI 2012 – but – experienced installation problems.

Not wanting to fight the ATIH 2012 installation problems, I purchased an upgrade to Disk Director 11 and tried upgrading by placing the new drive on a hard drive USB bridge and cloning. Same problems.

I then tried the “suggested recipe” (i.e. create a small partition at the front of the drive, restore one partition at a time, with the C: partition being last followed by the MBR). Same problems.

I then wondered if Seagate DiscWizzard would work – after all they made all the drives. Surely if anyone knew how to upgrade Seagate hard drives it would be Seagate. Well, the product is “powered by Acronis” and ended with the same problems.

In April, 2011, I had upgraded one Dell notebook from a Seagate 120 GB FDE hard drive to a Seagate 500 GB hard drive using ATIH 2011 (the backup, restore method). It had upgraded flawlessly.

The second Dell Latitude is still using another Seagate 120 GB FDE hard drive. I assumed that the problem was related to the new 750 GB SSD hybrid drives. And it should be a cinch to upgrade to a new Seagate 500 GB drive (as I did in April, 2011).

That upgrade ended with the same problems.

At this point in time I have spent nearly $400.00 on three Seagate hard drives. I have mentally written off the two 750 GB SSD hybrid drives. But thought I would backup the Dell notebook 500 GB hard drive onto another 500 GB hard drive. That was the latest surprise.

Bottom line, when the hard drive in either of Dell Notebook dies, currently there is no way to replace the hard drive and still have full functionality. Which takes us to the old adage “a dog only lives as long as it has teeth”. In my instance, my notebook will only live as long as its hard drive.

I have screen prints of the Windows event logs in a Word document. The “red flag events” start with:
The Windows Search Service cannot open the Jet property store
The Windows Search Service cannot load the property store information
The plug-in in cannot be initialized
The plug-in in cannot be initialized
The gather object cannot be initialized
The application cannot be initialized
The Windows Search Service is attempting to remove the old catalog
The Cryptographic Service service failed to initialize the Catalog Database. The ESENT error was -583

Vincent,
While my preferred method for moving to a new disk is the backup and restore method--which does not appear to work for you, then consider using the Cloning method and us the manual method and use the clone "as is" option. If this works for you, the partitions can be later expanded to occupy all the space but first you need a functional replacement.

Do the clone from the TI bootable media and place the blank target disk inside the computer. The source can be in some alternate location--such as an enclosure. First boot after clone should be with only the new disk connected.

Question: in all your restores, did you ever invoke the option to "Recover disk signature"? This option is at the bottom left of the select target screen. This may have been covered in the preceding posts--but not sure.

I guess I wasn’t clear enough in my post. I have tried the cloning method from both ATIH, Acronis Disk Director and Seagate DiscWizzard. None work (i.e. Windows Update Service, etc. no longer work).

I have tried the “recover disk signature”. Makes no difference.

I have tried both cloning and restore methods where the size remained the same. Still does not work.

Obviously, in the case of going from one 500 GB drive to another 500 GB drive, the size will remain the same. Still does not work.

Question: Is Acronis a publicly traded company? I think the Disk Director and True Image Home products are at the end of their life cycle. I would be interested in selling shares of Acronis short.

Vincent, if you are using Intel RST software for ACHI or RAID support on your system, you can download and re-install the current version of the Intel RST software after booting into the newly cloned drive. This sometimes corrects the problems you are seeing with the ESENT errors.
There is a utlilty on the Intel website http://www.intel.com/support/detect.htm to check your system for drivers and recommned updates to them if necessary. Others with Windows Update and Windows Search errors find that this has corrected these problems.

Thanks for weighing in on the topic.

I went to the Intel website and ran the utility. Only update it recommended was for WiFi (which I installed).

The problems persists.

(Optional) If you have Intel controllers for your hard disks, download the Intel RST utliity (for your version of Windows) and try to install it. It won't install if not needed.

Steps to try and fix the Windows Search problem: (if runnning Vista or Windows 7)

This procedure rebuilds the search indexes and corrects problems with Windows Updates (Sometimes)
ESENT errors are usually because of bad indexes in Windows Search, and the Windows Update service is tied to the indexes, and the Windows Search service. When doing restores, the indexes sometimes get corrupted.
In the following procedure the order of service disables and enables is crucial for success as they are dependent on each other and you will have problems stopping or starting the services if done in the wrong order.

**** You may have to open Control Panel and go to System and Security, Administrative Tools, Services (not Component Services), if you can not get services.msc to open from the Start button as instructed below. (due to the Windows Search problems) ****

Disable the Windows Search service. (Click the Start button, and type services.msc and press enter), find Windows Search, open it, and change the startup type to Disabled, click apply, click Stop, then click OK.

Disable the Windows Update service. Find Windows Update, open it, and change the startup type to Disabled, click apply, click Stop, then click OK.

Exit Services.

(For the next steps, be sure to have show hidden and show protected system files turn on)

Move to another folder (for safety) or Delete all the files in: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Search\Data\Applications\Windows

Move to another folder (for safety) or Delete all the files in: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Search\Data\Temp

Start Windows Registry Editor (Click the Start button, then type regedit.exe and press enter).
(If you can not start Regedit this way, go to your Windows folder and find the "regedit.exe" file and double click it.)
Go to: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows Search\SetupCompleted
Check if it’s been set to "0", if so then set it to "1" (DWORD)
Exit Registry Editor

Enable the Windows Update service. (Click the Start button, and type services.msc and press enter), find Windows Update, open it, and change the startup type to Automatic (Delayed), click apply, click Start, then click OK.

Enable the Windows Search service. Find Windows Search, open it, and change the startup type to Automatic (Delayed), click apply, click Start, then click OK.

Exit Services.

Click the Start button and type "Windows Update" and press enter.
(If you can not open Windows Update this way, Open Controls Panel, System and Security, Windows Updates, and click check for updates)

Click "Check for Updates" to see if Windows Update is now working.

Problems with ESENT, Windows Search, and Windows Updates, after cloning a hard drive or restoring files/folders are not specific to Acronis products, and have been reported with multiple cloning products as well as Microsoft's System Restore.

First, I assume this was a typo: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Search\Data\Temp
And should have read: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Search\Data\Applications\Temp
Incidentally, there were no files or folders at the locations (i.e. nothing to delete)

With regards to: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows Search\SetupCompleted

Under \Windows Search\ there is no SetupCompleted entry on my Vista or W7 machines. Hence no modification of the registry.

I did disable:
Windows Search Service
Windows Update Service

I then set them both back to Automatic (Delayed) and started both back up.

Same problems as before. Which you might expect with considering we didn't find anything in the registry to tell the system to rebuild.

On my Windows 7 64 bit system (and a Window 8 64 bit system as well), The folders I indicated do exist as specified. The temp folder could be in a different location. See folder.jpg As far as the registry entry, it is not a subkey of Windows Search, it is a DWORD value entry in the Windows Search key. see Registry.jpg In the Windows Search registry key, you can see the values that contain the data directory. The data directory should contain the Windows.edb database and several other files and folders. See proper_search_listing.jpg. If you can browse around and find the folder that contains the file and folder listings similar to my screen capture, esp. the Windows.edb file, those are the files/folders that need to be deleted. Also be sure to check the permissions on the C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Search\Data\Applications\Windows folder. It should have distinct, not inherited permissions, of Full Access for System, Administrators, and the current user. See permissions.jpg

Can you check on a working system if any of these items match mine?

You also could run from an Administrative Command Prompt: "sfc /scannow" and see what kind of issues you find.

Additionally, see this article on how to repair the Windows System Catalog Database: http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd363941(v=WS.10).aspx

Currently I have two working systems. One Vista and the other W7 64 bit. The problematic "systems" exist on cloned hard drives that I install and uninstall as new ideas surface.

The Registry does not match (although I want to defer that topic for a moment).

The data in \ProgramData\Microsoft\Search\Data\Applications\Windows looks about the same (screen print in attached Word document)

Also in the screen print are the "Advanced Security Settings" for \ProgramData\Microsoft\Search\Data\Applications\Windows

It looks like the two entries are duplicated (administrators and system). And Vincent H. Scott does not have Full Control.

I am wondering if this is a "permissions" problem.

I did the sfc /scannow previously and no issues were reported.

The fact that you are having the same problems on two different brands of machines made me think there may be some other issue, so I re-read your posts to see what I could determine. The issue is, you are using Advanced Format Disk (AFD) drives (4KB sector size) to replace standard format (512 byte sectors) disk drives.

See these:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2553708
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/982018

You should apply the correct hot fix to your working systems before backup if possible.

The two Seagate 500GB drives are in fact different.
ST9500423AS AFD
ST9500420AS Standard

The Seagate Hybrid Drive
ST750LX003 AFD

The successful upgrade you mentioned in one of your earlier posts, perhaps happened because sector size of the old and new drive matched.

You should be able to apply the hot fix to the already restored new drive, but you will more than likely still have to do some additional work to correct it completely.

To my surprise, the new Seagate 500 GB hard drive (SG9500423AS) appears to be an Advanced Format Disk. Although it does not have AF badging on the cover. But, when I run the IsAdvancedFormat utility, it reports the physical sector size is 3,072. I understand it should be 4,096.

The old Seagate 500 GB (SG9500420AS) is not advanced (i.e. physical sector size is 512 according to IsAdvancedFormat utility).

The Microsoft hot fix would not install on my Vista machine (I am in no position to work with the W7 machine at this time).

The Vista system is a notebook computer, it does not have RAID or SCSI drives. Simply SATA drive.

Yes, the upgrade (April, 2011) was from 120 GB to 500 GB where neither drive was "AF"

It almost sounds like I need an Intel hard drive fix, but, the Intel utility does not prompt me to install anything for the hard drive.

My backup procedure is:
Using stand alone ATIH, backup to an external MyPassport (tib)
Remove old hard drive
Install new hard drive
Using stand alone ATIH, restore to new hard drive

Please download and install the following if possible on the vista system. http://downloadmirror.intel.com/21730/eng/iata_enu.exe If it installs properly, try and install the MS hot fix for Vista in the the last post as well. You could aslo try to install the Intel RST software and/or the MS hot fix on the restored drive.

We seem to be making material progress.

I put one of the 750 GB SSD hybrid drives in the Dell Vista notebook (this was from a 08/15/2012 restore and was experiencing errors: Windows Update would not work, Windows Search Service would not startup successfully, Cryptographic Services reporting errors, etc.). And IsAdvancedFormat utility was reporting physical size of 3,072.

After I applied the Intel update (thanks for the above very specific URL) the IsAdvancedFormat utility reported physical size of 4,096. And Vista started rebuilding the "search index". Within about 30 minutes the search function in Outlook was working (this being dependent upon Windows Search Service working).

I was unable to apply the Microsoft hotfix. The computer simply did not know what a MSU file extension was (this likely a function of Windows Update not working correctly).

In event log, the only "red" event was related to the inability to open C:\Windows\SoftwareDistribution\DataShare\Logs\edb.log. I suspect this was why Windows Update was not working.

So, I reverted to my fully functional 500 GB Vista hard drive (non-AF) in the Dell notebook.

After which I did a full backup of the fully functional Vista notebook.

I applied the Intel and MS hotfix updates (in that order). Everything continue to look good. Just to be super safe, I disabled NIS 2012 as well.

Then I did another ATIH full backup.

I removed the 500 GB fully functional disk and installed one of the 750 GB SSD hybrid drives.

As I write this, I am doing a full restore to the 750 GB SSD hybrid drive.

Shortly I will call it a day. Assuming a successful restore, tomorrow morning I will boot up and see what happens.

Thought you might like an interim update.

Thanks very much for your very specific guidance.

The following statement:
"In event log, the only "red" event was related to the inability to open C:\Windows\SoftwareDistribution\DataShare\Logs\edb.log. I suspect this was why Windows Update was not working."
Can be corrected by following the database repair instructions in the http://support.microsoft.com/kb/982018 hot fix in the issue 1 problem resolution section. Although this hot fix is for Windows 7, the instructions to repair/rebuild the SoftwareDistribution database work in Vista as well.

You are not alone in the world of standard format (512 bytes/sectore) to AFD format (4KB/sector) cloning problems. (An internet search for this leads to all kinds of mis-information.) Most folks are not aware of the difference or issues this causes. Worse is trying to get XP to clone to a new AFD drive as XP really has poor or no support (when cloning). Almost always when moving from standard format to AFD drives with XP, a new install is the only reliable solution.
One can only imagine the horror moving a standard format drive MBR based Windows 7 installation on a newer UEFI firmware based system to an AFD drive greater than 2.2 terabytes and having to use GPT instead of MBR for the disk layout. (Throw in an SSD here or there and really make it special). With newer hardware and software implementations of disk storage, cloning (as well as backup/recovery) has become much more complex in recent years.
These are some of the reasons I have a thriving business. (I own a small computer technical/consulting business).
Hope things work out for you.

PS
In your post (#4) in this forum topic. you stated:
"Have fought this issue on and off for several days. Other than sending the new drives as gifts to people I want to truly annoy - I don't know what to do."
I'll be glad to accept any of your drives as gifts. I don't mind being annoyed.

Good news for me, it is now working flawlessly. Bad news for you, I no longer want to give away my new SSD hybrid drives.

I little humor, at my expense. This morning, after restarting several times, I noticed the WiFi was no longer working. My heart sank. I installed the latest Intel WiFi software. Still no joy.

Then I discovered a little WiFi on/off switch on the computer. I think I must have turned it off while swapping hard drives back and forth.

Sincerest thanks for "spot on" guidance.

Your welcome.

I assume you may now be "in the position" to work on the Windows 7 system after demonstrating your technical expertise on the Vista system.

I think we all understand that you are a volunteer. And these are your freely shared thoughts. Use at our own risk. No warranty express or implied.

Just the same, the thoughts and suggestions you shared fixed all my AF (advanced format disk) issues. You are a hero in my book!

Sunday I did the second Vista computer (it is my 78 year old brothers computer and it is about 30 miles away). It also went flawlessly.

Today I did the Windows 7 computer. It went flawlessly as well. I did cause myself some grief when I attempted to use Firefox to download KB982018. With Firefox you get this message along the lines of: "The validation tool you are using is no longer supported.." Mind you, I knew better as i have done the same dumb thing at least once before.

It turned out that KB982018 was already installed on my computer.

Vincent, I was playing with the signature options in the forums.
I'm glad you got the systems up and running. I'm sure you are the hero now.