Michael, you should be able to get around any problems with creating the ASZ on your external 1TB USB drive by booting from the Acronis Rescue Media rather than doing this from inside of Windows - this will eliminate any interaction with Windows or your security software that may be contributing to the error message you are seeing.

Personally, I stopped using the ASZ some time ago after coming across several issues in terms of managing the contents, being able to recognise what backup files were for what specific backup tasks / source partitions etc.  In essence the ASZ is just a modified FAT32 partition that can be turned back into a normal FAT32 partition by a simple change to the partition type flag - see webpage: Acronis Secure Zone Wiki for more details.

My preference is to have a dedicated NTFS partition for my backup files, where these can be password protected when created and be just as secure as using ASZ but which follow the task naming convention used in the main GUI.  I also duplicate my backups to a secure NAS drive plus other backups to other places, including standalone removable drives left disconnected otherwise.

Steve Smith: ASZs have long irritated me too with the lack of timestamps on the archives, etc. The main reason I use it is for the Advanced > Error Handling > "When not enough space in ASZ, deleted the oldest backup". This, at least, prevents backups from simply failing to run if/when the drive gets full. Only ASZ have this option, right?

I create local backups to a dedicated external USB and I also have a backup task that creates backups to a NAS drive. I've not tried the password protected non-ASZ backup, but I'll try that now on a different computer I'm having a different problem with.

I cannot readily do the boot-from-Acronis suggestion as the computers I'm maintaining are normally accessed remotely. I'd have to travel to the location to do that. I can reboot the computer remotely. I'll try that and see if the Error #1364 goes away. Otherwise, you know of no reason or remediation for this error?

Michael, if your backup task 'automatic cleanup' settings are correctly configured, then you shouldn't need the ASZ error handling options to delete old backups as automatic cleanup will do the same.

The key to automatic cleanup is understanding that this works on completed backup version chains, where a version chain = 1 x Full backup plus all associated Incremental or Differential backup files.

The simplest / easiest to understand cleanup rule is "Store no more than X recent version chains" where the oldest version chain will be deleted after the X+1 next Full backup image file has been successfully created.  This means that you need sufficient free space on your backup drive to store X version chains plus 1 further Full backup file before the cleanup rule fires and deletes the oldest version chain.

Still playing with this. I rebooted the troublesome computer, but that didn't help me create the ASZ. So, I did as you suggested and just used a passworded normal backup. However, when I went to change the notifications on the other, NAS, backup, I got an "unable to parse script" error and the entire backup settings were deleted! Grrrrr

Michael, sorry to hear of the script error - you should be able to restore the task script back from a .TIB file of your main OS partition if you want to do so.  Each backup task has a corresponding .TIS file which is stored in the C:\ProgramData\Acronis\TrueImageHome\Scripts folder - these files have strange names but are XML Text files that you can open in Notepad and look for the actual task name near the top of the file inside <display> </display> brackets.

If restoring these files from a backup, restore them to a different, temporary location so you can find the right one before moving it back to the original folder.

Steve Smith: Thanks for that tip about the .TIS file. I'll save that off for possible future use (though I hope not to need it). In this case it was annoying, but not that much trouble to recreate the backup config. That computer (computer "A") is now running its local backup without ASZ. I do have "recent version chains" etc. set, but size of backups can be unpredictable depending on what the user has updated or downloaded lately. The ASZ auto-delete of the oldest chain was a convenient way to make sure a backup gets run in the event the external drive gets full. This has happened w/o ASZ in the past and Acronis simply won't create new backups (not the correct default, IMO). This was why I switched to using ASZ in the first place back in 2013. Oh well ...

However, I seem to be playing whack-a-mole with Acronis this week. Computer A is now running, as described above, but the gremlin has apparently jumped to computer B. Perhaps this should be a different post, but I'll put it here since it seems to be related enough. I had an ASZ configured on that computer too. Recently I noticed that the backup was completely hung. It stayed at "Calculating time" forever -- well, for several days anyway. I tried killing Acronis, rebooting, nothing worked. After rebooting and launching the Acronis interface, the backup was always already running in the "calculating" state. I couldn't cancel it, couldn't modify the settings.

Finally, I simply uninstalled and re-installed ATI 2016, and reconfigured the backup with no ASZ. It's a simple partition backup of the C: drive to the external USB. After configuring it and cliking "backup now". I get the error, "Failed to run the scheduled task: An error occured while trying to run the task" (see image). Clicking the Knowledge Base button takes me to an obsolete page not updated since ATI 2013. I tried configuring a 2nd, different "Files" backup of the F: drive, but clicking Back up now gave me the same error. I tried deleting all backups and re-creating the C: backup a couple of time using alternatively the external USB or the C: drive itself. Same error in all cases.

Do you have any idea whats up with this? I've never had these kind of problem before. Lacking other idea, I could try uninstalling and reinstalled ATI again, but this is a fresh reinstall already -- no actual backups having been run yet.

More info. I've uninstalled and re-installed ATI 2016 again, this time NOT installing updates. I configured 2 backups, disk/partition for C: and 'files' for F:. Both ran without problem. The Notifications doesn't work so I assume that is something fixed by updates.

Since I've had ASZ and general backup problem for the past week on two computers I messed with (the original being the need to replace the external USB drive with ASZ), and since the backups DO NOT work either with ASZ or not at all, I am beginning to conclude that some recent update to TI 2016 has broken something.

I'm going to run this backup for a few days, then update Acronis and see if it still runs OK or not.

I spoke too soon. The 'files' backup for F: continuted "calculating time" for hours and hours. I could not stop it. I rebooted but when it came back up the backup was right back in "calculating time" mode. Clicking stop does nothing but grey out the stop button and show a continuous rotating circle in the backup drop-down. Is there a way to stop this backup and delete the offending backup settings without uninstalling and re-installing Acronis?

This has all been an inordinate amount of time! If I had had these kinds of problem when I first bought Acronis I'd have moved onto another product by now. I'm on the edge of jettsoning all Acronis backups in the office and looking for something with less headaches!

Michael, the tip about the .TIS file could help here, i.e. identify the .TIS file for the problem backup then delete that file - but do so while the main Acronis GUI is not open or any actions are in progress.  So you should stop all Acronis Services as a first step, then end all Acronis programs before deleting the .TIS file.

You could potentially have an orphaned Acronis Scheduler entry left behind in doing this, so download the Acronis Scheduler Manager tool (link in my signature) and run this as Administrator which will open a Command prompt type Window.

Type in get list which will show a listing of all Acronis scheduled tasks, and look for the one with the same name as the .TIS file for the backup task.  Note the identifier for this task, i.e. 1-2  then type in task 1-2 (using the identifier you found) and then type task delete to remove that scheduled entry for the task.

Steve: Thanks for your patience. As the first step I've searched C:\ProgramData\Acronis\TrueImageHome\Scripts. There are no .TIS files there. There are 2 .TIB files:

8B0B28E6-1EFE-4473-B431-739774E063A0.tib

17495CC9-539C-4F17-8247-7BBD4B79ACAE.tib

I've also searched the C: drive and found no .TIS files. Am I missing something in your instructions?

The `get list` in schedmgr.exe has:

inst=yes start=yes loc task=0-0 > get list
 Id ExecApp ExecCmd
--- ---------------
User 1 (NT AUTHORITY\SYSTEM):
  1-1   C:\Program Files (x86)\Acronis\TrueImageHome\prl_stat.exe for_scheduler
  1-2
  1-3
CurUser 2 (HPRS\Administrator):
  2-2  ~*TrueImageHomeNotify* /dummy /script:"17495CC9-539C-4F17-8247-7BBD4B79ACAE" /uuid:"17495CC9-539C-4F17-8247-7BBD4B79ACAE" /run_mode:?RunMode?
  2-3  ~*TrueImageHomeNotify* /dummy /script:"8B0B28E6-1EFE-4473-B431-739774E063A0" /uuid:"8B0B28E6-1EFE-4473-B431-739774E063A0" /run_mode:?RunMode?
  2-4   C:\Program Files (x86)\Acronis\TrueImageHome\TrueImageMonitor.exe /shutup
inst=yes start=yes loc task=0-0 >

I see that Ids 2-2 and 2-3 have the same basenames as the .tib files in ...\Scripts. Is it possible these schedule files have a .TIB file type rather than a .TIS file type?

I tried stopping all Acronis processes then deleting 17495CC9-539C-4F17-8247-7BBD4B79ACAE.tib, then rebooting, but this had no effect. Both backups are still shown on the ATI interactive screen and the 'Files' backup is still "calculating" and spinning.

Michael, the full file names in the Scripts folder would be 17495CC9-539C-4F17-8247-7BBD4B79ACAE.tib.tis so I suspect that you have the file extensions hidden in Explorer on your system.

You should be able to open these .tis files in Notepad as they are just XML text files.

Did you delete the scheduler entry for the problem backup using the Task 2-3 then task delete commands?

You are right. I set folder options to view file types and they are in fact .tib.tis. I can see the name of the backup in the <display> attribute, as you said. The one that is hung is 8B0B28E6-1EFE-4473-B431-739774E063A0.tib.tis. Before, I just deleted the file. I didn't use the scheduler program.

In schedmgr.exe I did:

inst=yes start=yes loc task=0-0 > task 2-3
inst=yes start=yes loc task=2-3 > task delete

but `get list` still shows it lin the list. I killed all acronis tasks, ran `get list` again, and now it's gone.

I'll try re-creating this backup and see what happens.

No go. I've created the File backup and again, it simply hangs on "Calculation time remaining", apparently forever. I wish there were some way to know why. Telling it to 'Stop' just grays out the Stop button but otherwise has no effect; it never stops. I will kill this one off as above and just forget about doing this backup. The files are on a RAID-1 drive, so If a drive fails I should be able to recover w/o backup. Plus, these files are the database files for SQL Server 2014 which are being backup up by a SQL Server task, so I'll be able to recover them. It seems that Acronis cannot back up the files on this drive for some reason.

Michael, the problem here may well be a combination of using Microsoft VSS and including SQL Server files - there have been a number of posts in this area in the forums about conflicts between these functions.

One thing you could try is to disable VSS for that one backup task as described in post: https://forum.acronis.com/forum/45832#comment-346558

This is made a whole lot easier with ATIH 2017 where this is now an option in the Advanced settings page, but with 2016 you have to edit the task .TIS file and redo this anytime you edit the task in the main GUI, but it would confirm if the calculating issue is caused by VSS or not.

Open SQL server and Oracle databases require VSS.  That is one area (about the only area) that VSS has an advantage over the Acronis Snapapi method without VSS.  If the goal is to backup an open SQL database, you must keep VSS enabled.

HOWEVER... that said, I wouldn't trust any open SQL database backups outside of the provided SQL Server backup function in SQL Server.  The moment you lock the system file as a "snapshot" with VSS, the database can be modified by someone else or somethign else in the background in the realworld, throwing issues - especially if the snapshot lock occurs while changes are being made and possibly not completed at that exact point in time.

The best way to esnure a SQL backup, is to have SQL create a full backup of itself with its embedded tool - do this as often as you need and/or based upon how much space you can afford.  Hourly, every 4, 6, 8 hours or maybe just daily? Use a tool or for cleaning up those SQL created backups if you need to.  Microsoft has an embedded tool called, Forefiles that can automate this to cleanup files of whatever extension you have based on a set # of hours or days.  And your Acronis backups would be secondary method for backing up and/or restoring those SQL backup, backup files. 

Steve, you're right, your referenced link sounds exactly like my problem. I didn't even know VSS was running, but running `vssadmin list` shows various things. Bobbo_3C0X1 says, "Open SQL server and Oracle databases require VSS." (What is 'Open' SQL server?) I'm running SQL Server 2014.

In an attempt to move forward, I've installed a trial version of ATI2017.

Steve Smith wrote, "This [disabling VSS] is made a whole lot easier with ATIH 2017 where this is now an option in the Advanced settings page." Steve, I cannot find this option. Can you tell me under which heading it exists?

Bobbo_3C0X1, I am doing daily database backups of the SQL Server tables using a TSQL script with BACKUP DATABASE. Are you recommending NOT doing an ATI backup on the SQL Server files? "I wouldn't trust any open SQL database backups outside of the provided SQL Server backup function in SQL Server." Or are you saying it's OK if I temporarily turn off VSS per Steve's comments? "your Acronis backups would be secondary method for backing up ..."

Michael, see KB 59440: Acronis True Image 2017: 'Snapshot for backup' option overview for the new option in ATIH 2017 that controls whether VSS is used etc.

With regards to your SQL Server backup - is this active when you are using Acronis to make the backup?  This may be a case where having SQL Server active will contribute to problems doing a backup in Acronis, whereas using the specific SQL Server backup tools should handle this without a problem.

From Microsoft:  Create a Full Database Backup (SQL Server)

Using SQL Server Management Studio

When you specify a back up task by using SQL Server Management Studio, you can generate the corresponding Transact-SQL BACKUP script by clicking the Script button and selecting a script destination.

Back up a database

1. After connecting to the appropriate instance of the Microsoft SQL Server Database Engine, in Object Explorer, click the server name to expand the server tree.

2. Expand Databases, and either select a user database or expand System Databases and select a system database.

3. Right-click the database, point to Tasks, and then click Back Up. The Back Up Database dialog box appears.

   General Page

4. In the Database drop-down list, verify the database name. Optionally, you can select a different database from the list.

5. The Recovery model text box is for reference only. You can perform a database backup for any recovery model (FULL, BULK_LOGGED, or SIMPLE).

6. In the Backup type drop-down list, select Full.

   Note that after creating a full database backup, you can create a differential database backup; for more information, see Create a Differential Database Backup (SQL Server).

7. Optionally, you can select the Copy-only backup checkbox to create a copy-only backup. A copy-only backup is a SQL Server backup that is independent of the sequence of conventional SQL Server backups. For more information, see Copy-Only Backups (SQL Server). A copy-only backup is not available for the Differential backup type.

8. For Backup component, select the Database radio button.

9. In the Destination section, use the Back up to drop-down list to select the backup destination. Click Add to add additional backup ojects and/or destinations.

   To remove a backup destination, select it and click Remove. To view the contents of an existing backup destination, select it and click Contents.

Bobbo_3C0X1 - yes, I am doing that SQL Server backup. It is schedule to run daily at 8:20PM.

Steve - OK, according to that link, the VSS setting is in Performance -- I didn't look there; got it. My SQL Server database files are located on F: I'm trying to just do a 'Files' backup of this drive, (not Disk/Image). On my Advanced > Performance > Snapshot, it defaults to "VSS without writers" for a 'Files' backup. According to that link ...

VSS
    This is the only recommended option for backing up your system. Your computer may not start after recovery from a backup created with a different snapshot type.
    This option is default for disk-level and the Entire PC backups and guarantees the data consistency in the backup.

As it says, "This option is default for disk-level ...", but I'm wanting to do File-level. Another option is:

VSS without writers
    This option is default for file-level backups.
    VSS writers are special VSS components for notifying applications that a snapshot is going to be created, so that the applications prepare their data for the snapshot. The writers are needed for applications that perform large number of file operations and require data consistency, for example databases. Because such applications are not installed on home computers, there is no need to use writers. In addition, this reduces the time required for file-level backups.

I haven't actually configured the file-level backup yet, but I'll give that shot this evening. Just checking ... I should go with "VSS without writers" for 'File' level backup, right?

Lastly, Steve, you wrote:

"With regards to your SQL Server backup - is this active when you are using Acronis to make the backup?  This may be a case where having SQL Server active will contribute to problems doing a backup in Acronis, whereas using the specific SQL Server backup tools should handle this without a problem."

Before doing anything rash, I need some clarification; I'm confused by this statement. "is this [SQL Server backup] active when you are using Acronis to make the backup?" The SQL Server backup should not be active when this eventual ATI2017 F: drive files backup runs. The ATI backup will be schedule for 7:00PM (or maybe I'll make it 6:00PM), after business hours, but before the SQL Server backup at 8:20PM. However, I do not stop the SQL Server services so it is possible that some queries are being done after hours, or that this Acronis 'Files' backup could extend beyond 8:20PM. Is this bad? You say, "This may be a case where having SQL Server active will contribute to problems doing a backup in Acronis."

On the other hand, you say, "using the specific SQL Server backup tools should handle this without a problem." It's probably me not getting what you're saying, but how can the SQL Server backup "handle this without a problem", but at the same time "having SQL Server active will contribute to problems doing a backup in Acronis." The statments seem contradictory.

Michael, glad that you have found the new settings. If your backup task was created on an earlier version prior to the introduction of this option then it could default to a different setting than that recommended in the KB document, i.e. VSS without writers for a Files & Folders backup.

When I asked about the SQL Server being active when the Acronis backup task is run, it was just the SQL server I was asking about, not whether you have an active SQL Server Backup running (using the SQL tools provided for this purpose).  If the SQL Server is inactive when Acronis runs, then there should be no locks held on any of the files etc.

Michael Press wrote:

VSS without writers
    This option is default for file-level backups.
    VSS writers are special VSS components for notifying applications that a snapshot is going to be created, so that the applications prepare their data for the snapshot. The writers are needed for applications that perform large number of file operations and require data consistency, for example databases. Because such applications are not installed on home computers, there is no need to use writers. In addition, this reduces the time required for file-level backups.

I haven't actually configured the file-level backup yet, but I'll give that shot this evening. Just checking ... I should go with "VSS without writers" for 'File' level backup, right?

Based on that, I'd say that would not be the way to go.  I think the writers are key for backing up "open databases".  Something that neither Acronis Snapapi or backing up without writers can do. Acronis is assuming that a home user is not running a SQL database so would be OK to use VSS without writers.  You're using a database.

In all likelihood, if you have a database failure, you're going to hae to resort to your SQL database backup - which could be recovered via your Acronis backup (that SQL backup would be static at the time of an Acronis backup - assuming you have them spread out and they're not both trying to occur at the same time).

You may want to consider doing a daily full SQL database backup  8 PM, but 1 or 2 differentials from the SQL backup method each following day so you don't lose an entire days worth of database inputs. For instance, if your database is active from 8AM to 6PM, maybe do a diff at 10am, 2pm and 4pm and your fulls at 8pm.  Acronis could then back those up each day anywhere from 9PM to 7AM.

Personally, I just don't trust any other "open" backup for SQL or Oracle databases, outside of what Microsoft SQL server backup provides.

I have continued to experiment. Yes, SQL Server is running when doing the Acronis backup. I don't really want to shut down the SQL Server services and, in fact, I'm not sure how to do that non-interactively. My latest test was backing up the SQL Server database files using ATI2017, 'Files' backup method and "VSS without writers". That actually seemed to work, although it took 5 hours and I had compression = High and Operating priority = Normal. At least it didn't hang forever. The created full backup is 28G. I've only run this once so far, nothing definitive yet.

To explain what I'm trying to do ... I do have actual SQL Server backups being created daily which are stored both locally and offsite. As far as I know, there is only one type of SQL Server backup -- there are incrementals. There are transaction snap shots which permit restoring from the previous backup to the point in time at which the snapshot was taken. I also do these transaction snapshots every 20 minutes during the business day which are also backed up locally and offsite.

My intention with Acronis is in the event of catestrophic failure, for example if the server blows up or the building catches on fire. I can use the C: image backup to restore the OS and the SQL Server application, and the F: files backup to put the database files roughly in the right place, but they don't have to be perfect. In any case I would then restore the saved SQL Server backups. All this would save me the time of installing Windows 7 from scratch, installing SQL Server from scratch, configuring SQL Server users, etc.

I'll post more after a few more tests.

Michael, thanks for the update on this issue, hope that Acronis backup continues to work well for you.

Michael, I would like to comment on the first post in this thread and on the backup of SQL server's data. The error Error #1364 - "(0x10002) A Specified authentication package is unknown (0xFFF0)" in your case may have the same root cause as described in the KB article https://kb.acronis.com/content/58827. When you see this error next time, check if the process schedhlp.exe is running. If it is not running, then that must be the problem. If you see this error on builds 6116, 8029 or newer - please contact us here. Build number is shown under Account tab.

As for backing up SQL databases with or without VSS: each SQL database software is either compatible with VSS or not. Microsoft SQL server is fully compatible, meaning that having VSS fully enabled (with writers) gives a guarantee that the databases can be backed up absolutely correctly. SQL VSS Writer will take care of informing the Microsoft SQL software that the backup is about to start. Microsoft SQL software will then make the necessary preparations, properly freezing its activities so that the database will be in a consistent state in the backup, like when an offine/cold backup is taken. And only then, after Microsoft SQL reports back to VSS that it is ready for the backup, the actual data copying will begin. The main advantage of SQL databases backup with VSS is that there is no downtime of SQL server services - during the snapshot creation (usually minutes) SQL server and dependent programs' are slowed down, but there is no failure, no error. All the transactions requested during the snapshot creation time are completed when the snapshot is created and the database is released from VSS lock.

If you are using an SQL server other than Microsoft, you need to check with its documentation whether it is fully compatible with Microsoft VSS. If it is - you can rely on Acronis backup with VSS enabled as your primary backup for the SQL databases. If not - use the server's own methods for backup. If it supports command-line commands for stopping and starting the SQL server, compose those commands in .bat files and indicate those .bat files as Pre- and Post-backup commands in Acronis software. Acronis True Image supports pre- and post- commands that enclose the entire backup period, starting with backup task launch and ending with finishing writing the .TIB file. Acronis Backup 11.7 and Acronis Backup 12 programs also have pre- and post- commands that cover the short period of time (usually minutes) when VSS and other preparations are made: http://www.acronis.com/support/documentation/AcronisBackup_12/#36352.html, to minimize the downtime of non-VSS compatible SQL servers.

Regards,

Slava

Slava, thanks for that detailed info. I will make note of your comments on the 1364 error.

I am running Microsoft SQL Server 2014. I will change the VSS mode to "VSS" instead of "VSS no writers" and see what happens. So far I've not had any apparent problems with the "VSS no writers" mode, but based on your comments and Bobbo_3C0X1's feeling that "writers are key for backing up" I'll give that a try.

Hello Michael,

If the backup with "VSS" option will be hanging or finishing with an error, start troubleshooting by looking into Windows Application log: Start - Run - eventvwr.msc - Windows Logs - Application. Notice when you started the backup and see what events are logged during the first several minutes after that time. There are usually one or several errors which you could look up in Google. Sometimes there are multiple chained warnings and errors, where just one is representing the root cause and the others are just consequences.

In rare cases System log could also contain useful information, but mostly the Application log is used for VSS troubleshooting.

Regards,

Slava

well, I should have left well enough alone. It had been running fine until I changed the Files backup to "VSS" instead of "VSS no writers". It has not run to completion since (2 weeks) -- it has remained hung. The other, Disk and Partitions backup hasn't run at all, no doubt waiting on the completion of the Files backup.

I tried changing it back to "VSS no writers", but that didn't work either. Today, I've completely uninstalled Acronis 2017, deleted the C:\ProgramFiles\Acronis folder and reinstalled (although it still manged to find old backup configs somewhere!). I deleted all configs and all backup files and reconfigured new backups; this time with the Files backup with "VSS no writers". Still no joy. After 3 hours of running it has hung at what appears to be about 45% complete and "2m remaining" showing for almost the whole 3 hours. The target .tib file shows 0 KB.

I'll give it until morning, then I'll check out Slava's application log and see if I can find anything. :(

More info:

I went ahead and looked at the Application event log. I see where I rebooted at 6:24P after uninstalling ATI2017. I see MsiInstaller events after that which is no doubt me reinstalling ATI2017. Thereafter I see nothing at all except routine MSSQL$MEMBERLINK "Starting up database 'ReportServer$MEMBERSlINKTempDB'" messages. No messages that could be construed as related to Acronis.

Ideas? If not, I'll try reinstalling ATI2017 again (if I continue with ATI). If I do that, where would it have found old backup configs even though I deleted C:\ProgramData\Acronis?

Michael, information about your old backup task configuration is stored in C:\ProgramData\Acronis\TrueImageHome\Scripts folder in .TIB.TIS files - these are in XML format and can be opened in Notepad.

Other information about your backup tasks, in particular, history and file information is stored in the Database folder found at the same path as the Scripts folder.  If Acronis is looking for non-existant backup files this normally comes from the Database files.

If you decide to do a clean install, then the process is as follows:

Uninstall normally via the Control Panel, then download the Acronis Cleanup Tool (link below) and run this as Administrator followed by restarting the computer to complete the action.  Finally, reinstall the latest ATIH build installer (download from your Acronis account if needed).

Steve Smith: Thanks, I know all about the .tib.tis files from your previous post. I've used that to peruse other question. Thanks for the tip on the Acronis Cleanup Tool. I'll definitely use that in the future.

Regarding the immediate issue, I needed more patience. Despite the progress bar appearing stuck, the Files backup with " VSS no writers" did eventually finish after 5 hours. The backups continued to work the next day (yesterday). Changing the Files backup to "VSS" was a mistake! It now appears to work OK with "VSS no writers", so I am going to leave well enough alone on this issue.

All: thanks for your help. This one was painful.

Michael, thanks for the update, hope all continues to work OK for you with the settings you have now.