Acronis True Image 2021 Validation options need clarification

Rodolfo, welcome to these public User Forums.

The key point about validation since ATI 2020 introduced the new .tibx file format is that it was being applied to all the files created by the backup task and thus made the validation process a potentially very long running task.

With ATI 2021, validation now offers the options you have shown from the help information so that the user can decide whether they only want to validate the files associated with the most recent backup version chain, or to use the 2020 default of validating all files for that task.

The help text above refers to validation being performed immediately after a backup is run or being scheduled to run.  The individual task menu options are perhaps a little clearer in their meaning as shown below:

Validate the latest version versus Validate all versions.

Note: there is no mention of backup slices in the above.  A slice in this context would be an incremental or differential backup associated with a full backup file.

Steve

I do not know where you get that info. My systems still only gives the old pick list

The drop-down menu list will depend on the type of backup task involved but is available for all tasks by clicking on the caret to the right of the task name in the Backup panel listing.

Hi Steve,

I would have to disagree that the drop down list that you have shown makes things clearer in this case.

I am specifically looking to use

"Validate the latest diverse backup only - A quick validation of the last backup slice."

This is in the options|Validation section.

I am backing up 4.2TB data and I do a full backup every week and daily incremental backups. This results in 3TB of backup files split into 4.55GB files. I have managed to get the backup time down to around 7 hours and 30 minutes. The full backup validation took just under 6 hours.

The incremental backup took 29 minutes and generated 3.4GB of new data. Despite being set to "Validate the latest diverse backup only", the validation took exactly the same length of time as the full backup validation.

I am currently trying to get this investigated by support but it is not progressing quickly.

The option "Validate the latest version" is not the same as "Validate the latest diverse backup only"

Validate the the latest version appears to be a task which will validate everything that would be restored from the latest backup, and ignore any earlier file versions that may be in the complete backup set. That is not "A quick validation of the latest backup slice" This description is taken from page 70 of the Acronis True Image User Guide which can be downloaded here:

https://dl.acronis.com/u/pdf/ATI2021_userguide_en-US.pdf

Nigel wrote:

The option "Validate the latest version" is not the same as "Validate the latest diverse backup only"

Nigel, that is correct, these are not the same, and the option to only validate the latest diverse backup is not available in the task drop-down menu, only the first option to validate the latest version.

The user guide only describes the diverse validation option in the context of doing a validation as part of the backup task execution where it clearly states:

Validate the latest diverse backup only - A quick validation of the last backup slice.

 As I wrote in my initial reply #1 above, A slice in this context would be an incremental or differential backup associated with a full backup file.

If you are using this diverse validation option and not seeing any reduction in time versus doing a validation of the latest version (full plus all slices), then this has to be investigated by Acronis as to why this is happening.

Steve Smith wrote:

Nigel wrote:

The option "Validate the latest version" is not the same as "Validate the latest diverse backup only"

Steve Smith says >  Nigel, that is correct, these are not the same, and the option to only validate the latest diverse backup is not available in the task drop-down menu, only the first option to validate the latest version.

 

With respect, but the response from Steve Smith is not correct.  
 

Look... a Backup version is the same meaning as a Slice (diverse backup).   There is no difference between a version and a diverse backup (which is considered in Acronis to be a slice).  So any time you see the word Backup Version, it means the same thing as Diverse Backup version which also means the same thing as Slice.   

Backup Version = Diverse Backup = Backup Slice

 

These validation options that you see from the drop down task list as well as the ones under the advanced options section of the ATI-2021 are designed to do the same exact thing.  Why would the engineers somehow want to confuse the user by doing something totally different?  Think about it, there are not supposed to be an infinite variety of validation methodologies, even though in my own personal opinion, it is a bit unforunate and confusing for us users when we see different (mistmatching) descriptions being used.    The best way to think about things is that a version refers to a slice (diverse backup), whereas an entire backup refers to all versions.  It's that simple.

 

So if you validate the latest version, then you are validating the latest diverse backup slice.   Same thing!

 

So under your Backups tasks, if you use the so called  "caret" that Steve is referring to, you will see two options:

1)  Validate the Latest Version   <-- This means validate only the latest backup slice.

2)  Validate all versions   <-- means validate all the slices for as many chains that exist for this backup task.

 

That's it... plain and simple.

 

Now...ehm... under the Options > Advanced > Validation  area of ATI-2021, the wording is a little different (unforunately confusing), but means the same thing.

Validate the latest diverse backup version only means the same as item (1) above  = Validate the Latest Version

 

Don't ask me why the engineers did not use the same wording here as on the task list  ?!?  

 

The next option here under  Options > Advanced > Validation   is:

Validate entire backup  which means Validate all versions.     Again, I have no idea why different descriptions 

 

I hope this is clarified now and helps people.

Nigel Freeney wrote:

Hi Steve,

I would have to disagree that the drop down list that you have shown makes things clearer in this case.

I am specifically looking to use

"Validate the latest diverse backup only - A quick validation of the last backup slice."

This is in the options|Validation section.

I am backing up 4.2TB data and I do a full backup every week and daily incremental backups. This results in 3TB of backup files split into 4.55GB files. I have managed to get the backup time down to around 7 hours and 30 minutes. The full backup validation took just under 6 hours.

The incremental backup took 29 minutes and generated 3.4GB of new data. Despite being set to "Validate the latest diverse backup only", the validation took exactly the same length of time as the full backup validation.

I am currently trying to get this investigated by support but it is not progressing quickly.

 

The option "Validate the latest version" is not the same as "Validate the latest diverse backup only"

Validate the the latest version appears to be a task which will validate everything that would be restored from the latest backup, and ignore any earlier file versions that may be in the complete backup set. That is not "A quick validation of the latest backup slice" This description is taken from page 70 of the Acronis True Image User Guide which can be downloaded here:

https://dl.acronis.com/u/pdf/ATI2021_userguide_en-US.pdf

 

 

Hi Nigel, read my response further down this page where I clarify everything for you.  Additionally, the validation takes a long time as do backups.  This has also been my experience.  I am hoping future versions of the ATI software will run much better, but for now, it is what it is.  But I caution you against thinking that somehow when you are validating the latest version, that this is validating an entire chain (or even multiple chains).  Validate latest version means, validate the latest Slice only.   Usually that slice is a Differential or Incremental but if you are approaching the end of the Chain, I suppose it could also mean a Full backup.    So Validate the latest version means the same thing as latest diverse

 

If you see Validate all versions, or validate entire backup ...  then this requests that Acronis go through as many slices and as many chains as exist for that particular backup scheme.   So All Versions and Entire Backup mean the same thing... Go through everything !    But latest version and latest diverse only refer to that last most recent slice.

 

I hope I am clear enough.

 

Alexander Madani

Alexander, do you work for Acronis and have access to the internal documentation regarding your definitions of the validation options?  If you do, then please get a new KB document published to clarify this officially and state what versions this applies to.

If not, then sorry but we must agree to disagree on your definitions above.

Since the introduction of the new .tibx files in ATI 2020, the rules have changed which in turn led to lots of user complaints because validation was applying to all the files for a backup task, this regardless of the number of backup version chains involved.  This led to extended validation times that could be many times longer than creating a new full backup image.

With ATI 2021, Acronis introduced the new validation options to help improve the performance of using this tool, giving users the extra options, i.e. to do as in ATI 2020 and validate everything created by the task which could include multiple backup chains, or else to validate either just the latest backup version chain or just the latest diverse backup or slice created for the task.

The use of the term 'slice' has gained greater prominence with ATI 2021 but has been used with previous versions and typically refers to just a single incremental or differential backup created as part of a larger backup version chain of the same type.

I have been in extensive disussions with Tech Support and this is what I believe they informed me about how Acronis definitions work.

So respectfully, I stick to the hands on experience and discussions I have had with Tech Support.  Knowledgebase articles are important but I feel that if you get too sucked into the definitions and theories, you can confuse yourself... so its good to mix it up.

A version and slice are the same thing.  Entire backup refers to the entire backup chain (s).  

I use ATI-2021.  

Hello dear Steve, 

 Firstly let me say that I greatly respect your experience and knowledge with Acronis, as I see you have been using the product for many years, and you really know how to go dig in the system logs etc... and do deep troubleshooting steps that most of the rest of us don't often know how to.

I have been using the rescue boot media of ATI since 2011... and more recently the 2020 and 2021 versions.

As per your question if I work for Acronis.  No.   And as per your question do I have acces to knowledge base articles... I do and sometimes I read them... but most of my experience has been hands-on and playing around with the stuff.

I contacted tech support and an agent who goes by the name of Naila, confirms that my understanding of the definitions above  (about validation) are correct.

That is to say...  a backup version = a backup slice = a diverse backup.   I have personally never seen anywhere in the docs where they refer to the backup version as a backup chain.   I would like you to correct me if I am wrong please.

Until then, it appears that the correct way to understand this situation relating to validation is the way I explained above, and has been confirmed with a few agents now.   Unless somehow what the tech support engineers understand and are telling me are incorrect, then we have to accept my earlier clarifications.

Where I do happen to agree with you is on the fact that there is definitely some inconsistency in the way these descriptions are worded.  There doesn't seem to be a consistent (nor very clear) way to refer to a backup version as just being a slice, whereas a Backup Chain (or Chains depending on how we define our custom task) refer to those backups that are comprised of multiple slices within them.

Ps.  When we look at a Backup Chain, I agree with you that a backup slice is ordinarily a differential or incremental backup  (also referred to as a diverse backup).  But what happens if that  "Slice" is the very first one in the chain?   You see what I mean ?   then you are dealing with a base Full Backup.   So in a sense its not immediately clear whether a Base Full Backup should be excluded from the definition of a slice.  But like I say, ... how most people like to think of Slice is to simply think of it as a differential or incremental even though these are all symantex and there is no really good reason logically speaking that we could not also consider the very first backup in the chain  (namely the base full backup) as a slice as well ?   Just some food for thought.

--  Alex

Hi Alex & Steve,

Alex's description of Backup Version = Diverse Backup = Backup Slice

might well be right.

I have been chasing this up for about 4 months. One of the problems is that even the escalated level support may not give you the right information unless you are very specific with your questions. After reading Alex's reply I have asked that specific question - it will be interesting if I get the same answer.

The problem is clearly the vague and inconsistent language including

"Validate the latest diverse backup only - A quick validation of the last backup slice."

A quick validation suggests that it is only checking a small amount of information as opposed to the latest full backup and its connected incremental backups in a chain of multiple full backup and incremental backups.

I will update you on the response I get.

Nigel Freeney wrote:

Hi Alex & Steve,

Alex's description of Backup Version = Diverse Backup = Backup Slice

might well be right.

I have been chasing this up for about 4 months. One of the problems is that even the escalated level support may not give you the right information unless you are very specific with your questions. After reading Alex's reply I have asked that specific question - it will be interesting if I get the same answer.

The problem is clearly the vague and inconsistent language including

"Validate the latest diverse backup only - A quick validation of the last backup slice."

A quick validation suggests that it is only checking a small amount of information as opposed to the latest full backup and its connected incremental backups in a chain of multiple full backup and incremental backups.

I will update you on the response I get.

 

 

=======================================================================================

Hello dear Nigel,  

Pleasure to meet you and thank you for the support of my response above.  I have been working extremely closely with several Acronis Support Engineers  (one of whom is named Masood and is a senior, and several other ladies one of whom is named Naila and has reviewed my responses above and told me I am right and steve is incorrect on this point.)  

The problem is that people get too much into theory, and don't step back to realize that although unforunately the product descriptions of these functions should be Consistent and use better (more percise language), that in fact Validation options Match what they do despite strange wording. 

In my personal humble opinion, when we alread have words like backup Chain and backup Version, there really is no practical use or need for introducing other terminologies like Slice and Diverse backup.  This is all symantex in my opinoin.  All we need is the concept of a Chain versus a Version and I am sure they will someday realize and implement my suggestions.   That's it, pure and simple.

Here is are some furthre examples to help further clarifiy my point.

An Incremental chain =>   (Full_Backup.tibx --- ( incremental_1.tibx --- incremental_2.tibx ) )

    The above incremental chain constists of three versions.  The Full backup version and two incremental versions.

   Similarly for the example chain below 

A Differential chain =>  Full_Backup.tibx --- Differential_1.tibx --- Differential_2.tibx --- Differential_3.tibx

 

So we can see that the words Diverse Backup and Slice are just symantex and do nothing but to add confusion to an already fairly complex product. 

As I said, all we as users should really be concerned with are the concept of a Version versus a Chain.

 

I would also dare go out on a limb and say that:  A version could be a Full, Differential or Incremental backup version.  I see absolutely no logical reason why we should discriminate against a Full backup as somehow not also being considered as a backup version unless someone can convince me.  (some like to call versions a "slice" or "diverse backup" and I am like okay whatever.)   A backup version is a backup version.  A chain is typically not thought of as a a backup version because we like to think of them as consisting of a set of two or more versions.   That's how I like to think about it anyways, and it works well in my mind.

 

Ps.  Don't ask me why the files in the target storage path look so funny in terms of their structure.  I have done a fair amount of analysis in my spare time and worked hard to get to the bottom of how they are setup, but the tech support does not have time to teach or discuss some of these deeper matters that I find fascinating.  It seems that the way they  "lump" various files inside one another is quite counter-intuitive and complex to understand.  There is a deepe inter-relationship between the Base Full Backup and the remaining versions, so it gets pretty tricky to fully understand (appreciate) why the file structures look the way they do.  

But from our standpoint as the end user, it should not practicall matter how they gor it working.  We just need to have a good overall understanding of how our product works, and believe it or not, I am still learning certain aspects of their cloud functionality because I don't currently have any experience or use those features. 

 

If you had any further questions, don't hesitate to ask me, and I will do my best to answer based on whatever experience I personally have.   But the definitions I provided earlier are absolutely correct to the best of my knowledge because I have contacted Support many times over the years and discussed those specific issues and every time they tell me I am right.  Even last night I had a support engineer come and review my response above  (her name is  Naila)  and she said my responses were correct.   Then a manager came online and said unless I had a technical problem or question, they cannot spend any more time going over these matters.  And that this forum is not their responsibility to maintain or somehow review  (only the modertators are supposed to do that).  

 

So I hope my answers are correct, and I look forward to hearing from you to see what engineers are telling you.  I would be somewhat surprised if my explanations were somehow wrong.

 

Sincerely,

Alexander 

 

Alexander, I admire your confidence in Acronis Support and am happy to be proven incorrect if I have reached a wrong conclusion.  Unfortunately, I have seen too many examples where the Acronis Support team have given incorrect advice or have never tested the advice they are offering to understand the consequences of actions suggested!

Steve Smith wrote:

Alexander, I admire your confidence in Acronis Support and am happy to be proven incorrect if I have reached a wrong conclusion.  Unfortunately, I have seen too many examples where the Acronis Support team have given incorrect advice or have never tested the advice they are offering to understand the consequences of actions suggested!

 

 

=======================================================================================

 

Hello dear Steve, I appreciate your very kind sentiments and support.  I appreciate your humbleness and wisdom a lot more than any bravery that I may have inadvertantly exuded.  It's easy to be brave and be incredibly wrong and I am old enough now I hope to realize that fact very well  :) 

 

But since some of this validation stuff was recently pretty fresh in my mind and I had been working dilligently with multiple different "Support Engineers" ... that kinda led me to believe what they were saying might actually be right.  But you are correct to point out (from your years of wisdom and experience) that we can never take things for face value until we get our hands dirty and really practice and examine things carefully and try our best to question what we think we are observing (or think we are observing.)  The challenge is that when software is developed by other people, we really don't understand what state of mind they were in when creating it, and what they were thiking... so we usually have to come onto the scene like a private investigator later and try to understand the terminologies and functionalities afterwards.  Which is not always easy, especially when there are conflicting or multiple different terms to refer to basically the same thing.  But nevertheless, debate and discussino like this I find to be very healthy and its what keeps scientific progress moving in the right direction for future generations.

At any rate, I appreciate you very much and please realize anything I share or say is only to try and help and share what I personally know best.  It is not in any way intended to offend anyone or prove anything about anything.  Because I love learning and I know I have been extremely wrong about many things throughout my life.

 

I happen to be the Developer of:  EZ Notes   on the Google Play Store.  And that journey alone taught me a lot of things that I will never ever forget for as long as I live   :)

 

Thanks Steve !

Keep doing what you do... your contributions are amazing and I find myself reading your posts from time to time and really admiring your knowledge and in depth experience.

 

Kind Regards,

Alexander

Steve Smith wrote:

Alexander, I admire your confidence in Acronis Support and am happy to be proven incorrect if I have reached a wrong conclusion.  Unfortunately, I have seen too many examples where the Acronis Support team have given incorrect advice or have never tested the advice they are offering to understand the consequences of actions suggested!

Hi Steve and Alexander,

It's refreshing to have a polite discussion about a poorly defined and potentially emotive topic. As with Steve I have years of experience of giving and receiving online software support. It is clear from my dealings with Acronis support that you may have to filter out the crud from time to time. Part of the issue is a case of Chinese whispers and the pressure that the support guys are under to try and solve the problem before escalating the issue irrespective of how obvious the issue is. On this current trial of patience I am trying to pin the 'Developers' down to provide more than "it's all working as expected".

My response to this was to request confirmation of the steps they took to replicate the issue and a request to provide the actual results of the tests that matched the hoops that I had already been asked to jump through.

After reading Alexander's post, I asked for confirmation of the correct definition of a backup slice, before providing further information.

Kumar supplied me with this information

"Based on your concern, I would like to inform you that 'Backup slice' is nothing but an individual run of a backup. Example: Lets say you create one full backup followed by 3 incremental backups so you have total of 4 backup slices. Each run of the the backup is considered as a slice which can be individually separated from the older.

Based on your second concern, yes Entire backup indicates the complete backup chain which includes all the backups residing under a chain. Example: Lets say you create one full backup followed by 3 incremental backups post to which you create another set of Full followed by 3 incremental backups hence now you have in total of 2 backup chains."

That definition supports the idea that an incremental backup validation of the latest diverse slice should just be the 40GB from that day and not the Full backup and three subsequent incremental backups of 3.1TB. Which you would then expect to fit the description of quick as in:

• Validate the latest diverse backup only - A quick validation of the last backup slice.

I should have more to add over the next week or two.

Nigel Freeney wrote:

Steve Smith wrote:

Alexander, I admire your confidence in Acronis Support and am happy to be proven incorrect if I have reached a wrong conclusion.  Unfortunately, I have seen too many examples where the Acronis Support team have given incorrect advice or have never tested the advice they are offering to understand the consequences of actions suggested!

Hi Steve and Alexander,

It's refreshing to have a polite discussion about a poorly defined and potentially emotive topic. As with Steve I have years of experience of giving and receiving online software support. It is clear from my dealings with Acronis support that you may have to filter out the crud from time to time. Part of the issue is a case of Chinese whispers and the pressure that the support guys are under to try and solve the problem before escalating the issue irrespective of how obvious the issue is. On this current trial of patience I am trying to pin the 'Developers' down to provide more than "it's all working as expected".

My response to this was to request confirmation of the steps they took to replicate the issue and a request to provide the actual results of the tests that matched the hoops that I had already been asked to jump through.

After reading Alexander's post, I asked for confirmation of the correct definition of a backup slice, before providing further information.

Kumar supplied me with this information

"Based on your concern, I would like to inform you that 'Backup slice' is nothing but an individual run of a backup. Example: Lets say you create one full backup followed by 3 incremental backups so you have total of 4 backup slices. Each run of the the backup is considered as a slice which can be individually separated from the older.

Based on your second concern, yes Entire backup indicates the complete backup chain which includes all the backups residing under a chain. Example: Lets say you create one full backup followed by 3 incremental backups post to which you create another set of Full followed by 3 incremental backups hence now you have in total of 2 backup chains."

That definition supports the idea that an incremental backup validation of the latest diverse slice should just be the 40GB from that day and not the Full backup and three subsequent incremental backups of 3.1TB. Which you would then expect to fit the description of quick as in:

• Validate the latest diverse backup only - A quick validation of the last backup slice.

I should have more to add over the next week or two.

 

==================================================================================

 

Thank you for the kind response update dear Nigel. 

I think this concludes that I was right.  The validation descriptions are definitely a bit vague and certainly inconsistent from place to place throughout the product  (as pertains to the discussion we are having concerning validation).

But I believe the definitions I had provided way earlier still stand and are in fact the correct ones.

 

Thanks for confirming I was right.

 

- Alexander Madani