Try and Decide ...
"Failed to Start Try & Decide" back again ...
After T&D was working as expected, with only one minor glitch (my post of 8-22), I am now not able to start T&D. Error text box stating "Failed to Start Try and Decide" pops up immediately after the warning "You are about to start Try Mode" text box. Interestingly enough, it WAS working ok two days before. Is it possible that I need the elusive "TND.MSI" patch ????
Robert Wagner
Black River Computer Serices
Cape Coral, Florida
What version of T&D do you use? Please, find out a build number for %windir%\system32\drivers\tnd.sys. Do you have UEFI- or BIOS-based boot? What kind of protection has been requested (e.g. "c->c" means protecting c: with storage on c:) ?
"Failed to Start Try & Decide" back again ...
After T&D was working as expected, with only one minor glitch (my post of 8-22), I am now not able to start T&D. Error text box stating "Failed to Start Try and Decide" pops up immediately after the warning "You are about to start Try Mode" text box. Interestingly enough, it WAS working ok two days before. Is it possible that I need the elusive "TND.MSI" patch ????
Robert Wagner
Black River Computer Serices
Cape Coral, Florida
Khalex .... I looked at the file TND.SYS and checked it properties. It show that the files Product Version is 1.1.0.2347. The computer system is a Sony VAIO SVF15A16, i7, 8 Gb RAM running Windows 10 Pro (Insider Edition) advanced batch ver 14328. This is a UEFI loader. When the problem first appeared yesterday, I was protecting drives C:, X:, M: and Z: to Z: I have changed that for testing to protecting C and storing it on C: with the same error ............
I just changed the configuration from protecting C: and storing it on Z: with the same error results.
Robert Wager
Black River Computer Service
Cape Coral, Florida
Robert, please, connect with Acronis support. They will give you the fixed version of TnD. The version installed on your PC have got known UEFI compatibility issue.
Or simply e-mail me: khalex AT newmail.ru
Hi Khalex , tried to mail you, but adress not right ?!
Will you be so kind to send us this TND-fix, coz we face same problems !
thanks
I have received an e-mail from Robert Wagner. But failed to reply to him: "Your message did not reach some or all of the intended recipients".
I've got a stable internal build. But it seems like not only one or two guys need fixed T&D, I think that the better way is using the official channel - Acronis Support. Let's wait for the next week when our driver will be signed by Microsoft (I hope).
I am sorry for the inconvenience.
Regards,
Alex
Khalex .... I will do as you suggested and contact tech support to obtain the updated build. Thank you for your effort
Robert Wager
Black River Computer Service
Cape Coral, Florida
Hello everyone
I think it is a complex thing, this TND, it seems that everyone has different issues, and some don't have issues.
About my situation, I had a working environment, prior to the last update.(new build)
With the new build, T&D doesn’t start and I get an error “Cannot start try and decide”, TND log reports initialization problems.
I also received a new t&d version from Acronis. (non signed) This one seems to function (partially) but I don’t have a system tray icon anymore and after switching off (no matter whether you save or discard the changes) and rebooting I get a rather complex and frightening error. (See attachment) The TND loader doesn't dismount and remains visible in my bios.
I managed to get rid of it to rename the tnd.sys and the tndxxxx.sys (version number I don't recall) to .old versions and put back the tnd.sys from the previous build. Then I reboot, restart T&D, get a "normal" "can't start" error and tnd loader is gone from bios.
Has anyone else received this kind of error ? I already reported this to Acronis and it is the latest version up until now.
So, referring to the last posts, the latest non-signed version of t&d (received by Acronis the day before yesterday), doesn't work for me. The error that you can see in attachment is produced by this version.
Kind regards
RHE
Hello again,
I've installed the latest build 6569.
Problem remains for me, TND doesn't work, failed to initialize in log files. I've sent logfiles to Acronis
Kind regards
RHE
I have installed the latest version of Acronis 2016, Build 6569 and concerning T&D, everything is working fine (so far) ..... it is like a brand new operation again .... Sony VAIO, UEFI, 8 Gb RAM.
Robert Wagner
Black River Computer Services
Cape Coral, Florida
Robert, thanks for posting again! So, it appears "fresh" installs seem to be working, upgrades may still be problematic (as RHE, I suspect upgraded). You're probably sick of testing, but if possible, perhaps you could install v6027 adn start T&D, then upgrade to 6559 and see if still functioning or not and then again to to 6569 (if it is still working after the first upgrade) and see if still working or not?
Hello
For your information
I’ve cloned my disk a few days ago so I could test and test with this new disk and without hassle afterwards.
So I did try a complete uninstall, I ran ATI cleanup tool, reinstalled build 6569 but TND keeps failing.
When experimenting with different tnd.sys file versions (also the non signed TND version) I managed to start tnd but I couldn’t get it to switch off.
I was in a kind of circle, I couldn’t uninstall ATI because it said that TND was running but it was not. Restarting the PC made the tndloader to boot and to produce an error, this time error “Not enough memory”.
Anyhow, I was wondering if anyone knows how to make ATI stop thinking that TND is still on when it’s not anymore ?
Must be somewhere in system files or registry, I experimented with EFI boot partition but even when I delete the TND loader there, ATI remains thinking that TND is on.
I didn’t find the solution so I recloned this disk again to make this behavior go away.
@ khalex,
Have you received the signed tnd.msi update file from microsoft? I would like to try it on a clean install OS. Thanks
It seems to be the same as I reported. I did send therefor a feedback with the following text: (Probably you have also one of the machines with the boot variable they don't test)
Under http://forum.acronis.com/forum/116818 I (german_opa) reported, that T&D leads to a failure from Acronis True Image after restart because T&D did not really close.
When I look to two facts:
1. There is an issue with starting TnD on some UEFI machines where boot variable contains path a little different way than on our test machines.(reported from KHAlex)
2. Fixed issue: The current Try&Decide changes are discarded after you select to keep them when the computer restarts (reported in the notes to True Image update 2)
it is very propable, that the issue fact 2 was fixed without considering the special case of fact 1. This creates the problems on my computer.
So, I belive, the developers from True Image should do a similar thing as khalex did to solve the T&D problem.
I'm not sure it's addressed to me but I have tested with a non signed version of MSI files, received from Acronis
@rhe: Yes, it was an answer to your input. I tested also with the unsigned version. Until now, I have no idea, how to get the signed version. But when my asssumptions are correct, the signed version will not change the problem, as according to my understanding the bug is now not in T&D (this was solved by khAlex) but in the program trueimage itself, which should close T&D at restart but does not.
Bobbo_3C0X1 ..... <<<<<as per your request "Robert, thanks for posting again! So, it appears "fresh" installs seem to be working, upgrades may still be problematic (as RHE, I suspect upgraded). You're probably sick of testing, but if possible, perhaps you could install v6027 adn start T&D, then upgrade to 6559 and see if still functioning or not and then again to to 6569 (if it is still working after the first upgrade) and see if still working or not?">>>>>
I probably mis-stated my situation. I did NOT do a clean install of 6569, but simply did an update. The version previous to 6569 was not working and gave error "Failed to Start Try & Decide" .... after the update to 6569 everything appears to be working correctly on this system.
Robert Wagner
We signed the driver only on 03/05. So, who needs/wants to try using T&D, please, ask Acronis Support for T&D msi #2463. I guess it will resolve issues.
Thank you in advance!
khalex
Hey Khalex
I'm happy to test version 2463.
A bit disappointed though that this version hasn't been offered to me as a potential solution given the fact that I have 2 elevated pending cases @Acronis.
I hope to receive this version soon.
Completely off topic, I detected a minor bug in version 6569 as automated backup validation settings are no longer stored in the backup
Grtz
RHE
Khalex
FYI,
Contacting Acronis First line support learns me they are not allowed to give this file to customers as they don't have it (they tell me)
It's very hard to get an answer from the experts who work on my elevated case.
Given the fact that TND can really fuck up your PC, I would have appreciated a quicker response from the expert team.
Even a short answer as "we are working on it" would be better than silence.
Frustrating
RHE
RHE, please, e-mail me: khalex AT newmail.ru
Khalex
FYI,
Contacting Acronis First line support learns me they are not allowed to give this file to customers as they don't have it (they tell me)
It's very hard to get an answer from the experts who work on my elevated case.
Given the fact that TND can really fuck up your PC, I would have appreciated a quicker response from the expert team.
Even a short answer as "we are working on it" would be better than silence.Frustrating
RHE
Well Done Acronis (I hope)
Just tried T&D and it works !!!
Heres the basic detail for interest
Well for now, for me, Try & Decide is working.
I am on Windows 10, Evaluation copy, Build 14332.rs1_release.160422-1940
Acronis True Image was installed from scratch after using the clean-up tool and then re-installing.
I then updated to Build 6569 and this was the version tested here today.
I also have Acronis Safe Zone installed and working for backups, along with a Cloud backup and a third one on a seperate disk, drive F.
A bit paranoid but it helps keep me sane & working.
I have successfully done two (2) instigations, one with removing all changes and one with leaving changes.
Both have been done with a reboot as a choice.
Although all I did was place a word document on the desktop. Hopefully it will stay working.
PC is an HP Z820, Windows is installed on a PCI-E M2 SSD card. D is also an SSD but I had the same problems there when it was the boot drive with T&D.
I wont be trying Windows/T&D on the original drive though, it was an HP SSD, a Seagate ST240FP0
Hope this helps all those still trying to get it to work.
Mike
Edit, This version also seems to boot easier, previously I had great problems as on reboot, Windows could not find a bootable drive.
Now, both boots worked properly, Windows started up without a problem
Well Done Acronis (I hope)
Just tried T&D and it works !!!
Heres the basic detail for interest
Well for now, for me, Try & Decide is working.
I am on Windows 10, Evaluation copy, Build 14332.rs1_release.160422-1940
Acronis True Image was installed from scratch after using the clean-up tool and then re-installing.
I then updated to Build 6569 and this was the version tested here today.I also have Acronis Safe Zone installed and working for backups, along with a Cloud backup and a third one on a seperate disk, drive F.
A bit paranoid but it helps keep me sane & working.
I have successfully done two (2) instigations, one with removing all changes and one with leaving changes.
Both have been done with a reboot as a choice.Although all I did was place a word document on the desktop. Hopefully it will stay working.
PC is an HP Z820, Windows is installed on a PCI-E M2 SSD card. D is also an SSD but I had the same problems there when it was the boot drive with T&D.
I wont be trying Windows/T&D on the original drive though, it was an HP SSD, a Seagate ST240FP0
Hope this helps all those still trying to get it to work.Mike
Edit, This version also seems to boot easier, previously I had great problems as on reboot, Windows could not find a bootable drive.
Now, both boots worked properly, Windows started up without a problem
I must said that they really fix it for me with the updates to TnD! I thank you for the efforts Acronis.
To all of you who have a working TND application : I am truly happy that it works for you.
Unfortunately, the fact remains that for some others (like me) there still are issues that prevent TND from working.
But then again, I was the fortunate one during the time that build 6027 was the most recent one. That one worked for me while others here on the forum experienced issues at that time.
It's clear that there are a lot of (machine related) parameters that can affect the TND functionality. At a certain time I even experienced different TND behaviour after an update of my BIOS. (FYI, ASUS Z97 pro Wifi- AC)
Despite the fact that this is going on for quite some time and that there sometimes have been moments that anger got the better of me I sense a willingness @Acronis to find a universal solution that can work for every one of us.
I'm taking the opportunity to thank khalex who has volunteered to take a look at my TND logfiles that show quite some errors.
On top of this there is a remote support session planned with Acronis next week. I was told that a developer will be present during this support session.
I hope they can find the root cause because although backing up data is the core business of Acronis, I have used TND so many times that it will be hard to miss this functionality.
I'll let you know the results.
Kind regards,
RHE
What a journey, what an experience, that’s the least I can say.
I promised feedback, here it is, a little bit later than I expected but here it is.
In short, I have a working TND version today. It’s not the version that accompanies the latest ATI build 6571 (doesn’t work for me) but I have a working, signed TND version.
For those who are interested, here are the details:
As said in the previous message about the remote support session, it took place as planned.
It didn’t take the developer very long to see what went wrong with TND on my PC. He told me a code change was necessary and it would take a couple of days to make the changes and have the new bootloader signed by Microsoft.
They let me wait a little bit longer than I expected and upon my request, I received the unsigned version to test with, directly from the developer.
Unfortunately, it didn’t work. I still got an error message at reboot, this time only when I chose “continue” in the boot screen. An automatic discard was the consequence. All the rest of TND functioned as expected.
This all happened about 2 weeks ago but I’m still impressed about what follows:
So I gave feedback, directly to the developer and we started to “work” together.
I performed a lot of tests on his request, he provided me with adapted DLL’s to be able to collect more detailed logs and he also, based on the results of this logs, provided me with adapted EFI files to test with.
The log files revealed that the TND loader wasn’t able to “find” the windows loader to hand over the boot process.
Unfortunately, I still didn’t get TND to work as it should.
But the developer didn’t give up and provided me with other DLL’s to expand the log details even more.
The detailed log files revealed that there was some sort of erroneous/inconsistent behaviour on my machine at boot.
The fact that the developer told me that there was unexpected behaviour at boot got me thinking.
The developer also told me he tested this TND version with an ASUS motherboard and it worked.
The motherboard I have is an ASUS Z97 Wifi Pro AC which I bought when it was just released on the market, about two years ago. So I started with the first BIOS version and performed quite some BIOS updates along the way.
And then I remembered I had boot problems at a certain time with this motherboard. I was forced to - unplug all drives, boot to bios, switch off, plug in all drives again – to make it work again.
I also noticed in my bios a lot of windows boot manager entries prior to doing this.
All this information and all these thoughts, combined with some internet browsing, lead me to check my Boot Configuration Data File. And I was surprised to find more than 120 Windows Boot Manager entries in my BCD.
I decided to delete them all and to make sure I got a clean start, I afterwards rebooted from Windows disk and rebuilt my BCD using the “bootrec” command.
I was so surprised when I tested TND afterwards. I wasn’t expecting it but TND functioned without any error at (re)boot. And now, 2 weeks later, when I’m writing this, it still works fine. I tested it every day up until now.
I have been using Acronis software since 2010 and I have had my share of problems along the way. We all know that Acronis’ software isn’t always “stable”.
But this case really makes me forget all of this.
Acronis, you really amazed me this time.
So, I explicitly want to thank everyone who helped in finally getting to this result.
Acronis in general
The support department, more specific.
But the person who gets most of the credits in this story is developer khalex, who showed eagerness to find the root cause of this problem and programmed DLL’s until very late at night
It is my honest opinion that khalex should be rewarded for this by Acronis.
So, THANK YOU khalex, for showing all this willingness and putting all this effort into it, It really makes me feel recognized as a customer.
Bye
Unfortunately, things are still not quite right with T&D on my HP Envy laptop. I removed the previous verson af ATI 2016 and ran the cleanup tool, then I installed ATI 2016 build 6571.
My PC has two boot entries, one of which (the default) disables Hyper-V (to allow VMware to run) and the other enables Hyper-V.
If I use T&D and then keep the changes it all works ok. If I discard the changes, when the PC reboots I get the Acronis red blob "discarding changes" on the task bar but nothing more happens and the changes are not discarded. If I go into Windows 10 Advanced Startup and start the PC using the "Acronis TnD Loader" then it works correctly; all the changes are discarded and the PC is put back as it was before T&D was started.
I ran "bootrec.exe /fixmbr" from the command prompt in the Windows 10 troubleshooting recovery options, hoping that I would get the same result as RHE above but it doesn't seem to have helped.
So the problem, for me, is that T&D won't automatically run the Acronis TnD Loader on reboot when it's supposed to be discarding changes.
Hello Howard
Some questions:
what ATI build are you using and what version of TND ? The one integrated in ATI or a separate version from Acronis? My system doesn't work with the built-in version of ATI6571
I had simular problems, it seems as if your system isn't able to find the TND bootloader at startup either ?
Did you try restarting pc without making any TND choice so you get the start-up screen from the TND loader ?
Do you also have a huge number of windows boot manager entries in your BCD ? I checked with command "BCDEDIT /enum all"
FYI, The command I used to reset my BCD was bootrec.exe /rebuildBCD
I don't think it has anything to do with hypervisor, I'm using this also.
Kind regards
RHE
Hi RHE.
I'm using build 6571 but I have had this problem with all versions of ATI 2016.
Thanks for the info re. BCDEDIT. "BCEDIT /ENUM ALL" listed quite a few options: several WINDOWS BOOT MANAGER options and even more "firmware application"s, although I've never run this command before and I wouldn't really know what to expect.
I ran " bootrec.exe /rebuildBCD" and then tested T&D, selecting "discard changes". On rebooting, I ended up with the familiar red "discarding changes" blob on the taskbar and had to boot manually into the "Acronis TnD Loader" to continue to discard the changes, which it finished successfully.
This seems so close to actually working. The underlying T&D process must be working ok and the problem appears to lie in convincing the PC to boot into the "Acronis TnD Loader" when discarding changes. I have an HP 260 G1 with the same boot setup and that works fine with T&D so it doesn't seem to be multiple BCD entries that causes the problem.
Hi Howard
I forgot to mention, I actually deleted all of this windows boot manager entries. I used a free tool called visualBCD to do this.
I noticed that rebuilding the BCD doesn't actually delete those.
Be carfeful though, I managed to delete one entry too many and I needed to boot from windows disk in order to be able to rebuild my BCD. (via dos prompt)
How many entries do you see ? (I had 120)
Do you get a menu to choose "discard" or "continue" when you simply reboot your pc when TND is active?
I too think you are close to making it work.
I would suggest you try to clean out your BCD too, but please, only do so if you have a disk to boot from in case of an emergency so you can rebuild your bcd in that way.
If that doesn't make it work, perhaps you should consider trying the TND version I have.
Grtz
Hi Everyone
I thought I would give T&D a go and it was a disaster. I selected boot to apply changes and the computer froze at the hit del or f2 to enter bios screen. It was so frozen I couldn't enter the bios. I thought it had corrupted the bios and cleared it. Major panic.
Ended up unpluging the boot disk and was able to enter the bios. Had to reenter all of the overclocking settings and then was able to boot into acronis. Restored from a backup.
Total disaster. Never seen any software that was able to freeze the bios like that. Crazy stuff. Won't be going near T&D again.
Hi Everyone
I thought I would give T&D a go and it was a disaster. I selected boot to apply changes and the computer froze at the hit del or f2 to enter bios screen. It was so frozen I couldn't enter the bios. I thought it had corrupted the bios and cleared it. Major panic.
Ended up unpluging the boot disk and was able to enter the bios. Had to reenter all of the overclocking settings and then was able to boot into acronis. Restored from a backup.
Total disaster. Never seen any software that was able to freeze the bios like that. Crazy stuff. Won't be going near T&D again.
Do you realize what you are saying makes no sense at all? The Bios works at the hardware level and you are blaming the Software for screwing up your overclock system? May I remind you that overclocking can result in an unstable system that might end up in system errors. So stop blaming the Software for messing up your Bios!
Pedro, Mike is correct. This can happen. I recall a previous thread dealing with a Dell computer where the poster claimed True Image had caused the motherboard to lock out the BIOS. The only solution was to replace the motherboard. Like you, I thought the poster must be wrong until it happened to me. The last two versions of Try & Decide have done exactly what Mike has described to my computers. Upon requesting a reboot to apply changes, I was unable to boot any media and was not able to enter the BIOS. My situation was even worse than Mike's. Even after removing all internal drives, I was still not able to enter the BIOS. All I got was a black screen that didn't react to any input ( a dead motherboard). I assume the problem has something to do with the how the Secure Boot feature of the BIOS reacts to what T&D is doing. I was very lucky that I had an Asus motherboard with the USB BIOS Flashback option. It allows you to reflash the BIOS from a USB drive when the computer is on standby power. There is no need for the computer to POST. I was able to reflash the BIOS using that feature. After resetting the BIOS options (reflashing set the BIOS back to factory defaults), I was able to resume normal operation. If I didn't have the USB BIOS Flashback option, the motherboard would have needed to be replaced or go back to the factory to have the BIOS reflashed.
Hi, Mike.
What firmware does your system use? UEFI or BIOS?
Can you name the Motherboard model?
Hi Dimitry
It is UEFI. The motherboard is ASUS Maximus VI Hero. The boot disk is a Samsung 840 Pro.
Has anyone had this problem ?? Acronis has kindly allowed us access to Acronis 2017 beta. The system looks pretty good even running on the Microsoft Windows Insider program. But one quirk we have found is that everytime Microsoft offers up a new build and it is installed, Try and Decide fails to work, with the fatal error of "Try and Decide failed to load". I started to notice this with build 14372 to 14379. T&D failed. Acronis was uninstalled and Acronis cleanup ran. Acronis 2017 was re-installed and it worked properly.
Build 14379 was updated recently to 14383 and again the failure to load error was encountered. Acronis 2017 was uninstalled, Acronis cleanup tool was executed, Acronis 2017 was re-installed and now T&D works properly.
Anyone care to verify my findings ??
System Specs ............................................................................................................
Windows 10 Professional (x64) (build 14383) 8072 Megabytes Usable Installed Memory
Install Language: English (United States)
System Locale: English (United States)
Installed: 7/8/2016 9:20:14 PM
Boot Mode: UEFI with successful Secure Boot
Sony Corporation SVF15A16CXB C10H1VSH
System Serial Number: 54589711-0010178
Enclosure Type: Notebook
2.50 gigahertz Intel Core i7-3537U
128 kilobyte primary memory cache
512 kilobyte secondary memory cache
4096 kilobyte tertiary memory cache
64-bit ready
Multi-core (2 total)
Hyper-threaded (4 total)
Board: Sony Corporation VAIO
Bus Clock: 100 megahertz
UEFI: Insyde Corp. R0230DA 02/24/2015
Black River Computer Services
Cape Coral, Florida
I won't be able to test, but I can see this happening. Windows backup and recovery is now built directly into Windows 10 and not on it's own recovery partition. However, when the OS upgrades in Win 10, I believe it is making changes to the boatloader that third party tools may have adjusted (like EasyBCD and probably Acronis in this case too). I wouldn't think this would be the case in the minor upgrades (although it sounds like it could be), but I would definitely expect this with major releases as Windows bascially "reinstalls itself" with each upgrade, hence the windows.old folder left over for fallbackup, just in case.
Hi Dimitry
Not sure which Mike you were talking to, Mine is UEFI and is an HP HP Z820 motherboard
I had to reset the BIOS completely to get back control. then had numerous Device Driver errors, HP checked and they were nonsense - the only way to remove them to restorre defaults, reboot and then setup the system again
Currently running the Beta 2017
I have verified, again, that when Windows 10 does an upgrade, and the build number changes, Try and Decide will fail to function.
I just installed (updated) from Win10 build 14383 to build 14385. I ran and executed T&D successfully before the update, and after the update T&D failed with the error "Failed to start Try and Decide".
Necessary steps were to uninstall Acronis 2017, run the cleanup tool, reboot and re-intall Acronis 2017. After that sequence, T&D runs without a problem.
The BIG problem here is that I (we) lose the list of backups, including those that are configured to run on a schedule. Frustrating ...
With, as Bobbo_3C0X1 commented, this is not surprising as Windows basically rebuild itself on an update including maybe the bootloader.
Robert Wagner
Black River Computer Services
Cape Coral, Florida
Robert, Steve has found a work-a-round for keeping your scripts. You still have to go back in and repoint the source and destination (sometimes), but may save some time in the future...
http://forum.acronis.com/forum/122033#comment-374303
Note 2: The cleanup tool will remove all your backup tasks and task history. If you want to protect this information, then open C:\ProgramData\Acronis\TrueImageHome\ in Windows Explorer - this may be hidden on some systems - if so, go to the Folder option in the View pane and enable hidden files & folders).
Save a copy of the Database and Scripts folders to another location to restore back later.
Note 3: In order to restore the above folders & contents, you must stop all Acronis Services & Programs else you will encounter locked files in the Database folder.
Today the Support offered me a new tnd_setup.msi (size 30.408 KB) which allows me now to use T&D. But there is still a Bug:
When I start T&D, install a new programm to test it and this program asks first to restart the PC, after the restart of the PC T&D is closed and the installation is deleted. With other words: T&D forgets to ask me at restart of the PC if I want to delete or keep the changes I made under T&D, but deletes all changes without notice.
Hello All,
If Try&Decide fails to start and your system boots in UEFI mode, please update Try&Decide driver as explained at https://kb.acronis.com/content/58382
If this will not help, other options would be to try Acronis True Image 2017 Beta or raise a support ticket.
Regards,
Slava
Hi there,
sadly I have to report that after installing latest (big) Windows 10 update (1607), Try & Decide stopped working completely (can't start).
:-(
I like T&D, so I keep ATI 2013 on my backup computer if I need to try and decide something. On my active business computer, I have both ATI 2015 and Macrium Reflect. I use Macrium for my disk backups but it's much slower doing file/folder backups compared to ATI- so I keep ATI for that purpose.
Joe